Whole Sign Houses

I moved over to using whole sign houses exclusively in 2013. Here is the article about that change.  The books that prompted me to look into Whole Signs in the first place were; Robert Hand’s “Whole signs – The Oldest House System” and the “History of the Houses” by Robert Powell. Between the two Roberts I think I have found a house system that works and has the weight of history and scientific analysis to back it up.

The whole of modern Western Astrology is based on the tropical zodiac, which is based on the seasons and nothing to do with actual star-gazing. The AC represents 0 degs Aries, the beginning of the vernal equinox, the start of the pagan year spring. New life, new starts, birth and so on, showing the evolution of the soul through the signs, which are really the months of the year. The earliest house systems where split into 4 quadrants going clockwise. Therefore we have the rising (AC), upper culmination (MC), setting (DC), and lower culmination (IC).

Gauquelin conducted research on thousands of peoples charts and came up with Plus zones which corresponded with these angles. He showed a statistically significant strength in rising and culminating planets and at a lesser scale on the last two angles. He found these planets strongest in his zones for certain careers; Mars for sports, Jupiter for actors, Saturn for writers and the Moon for writers.

Gauquelin says “The favorable zones should have been progressively expanded to thirty degrees after the rise and culmination of planets, ie houses 9 and 12. Instead the thirty degrees before the rise and culmination of planets were adopted as more essential for knowing the natives character and social status. When will the Astrological community admit there was an error?” [1]

The most powerful of ALL houses according to Gauquelin would then include most of the much maligned 12th house, the so called “House of Self-undoing” So, was there an error? Or has there been some serious Neptunian “fogging”?

Gauquelins Plus Zones

Scientists have used Gauquelin’s research (as well as the precession discrepancy) as part of their ammunition to debunk Astrology. Indeed Gauquelin isn’t credited by Astrologers either, because his research does not support the traditional interpretations of the houses. But the point is, Gauquelin actually proves Astrology works rather than disproves. But Astrologers have not made a noise about it. We need to go back in time and see why and when Astrology went awry.

So we had a clockwise house system with the Ancient Egyptians until the arrival of Hermes Trismegistus, the divine God of wisdom and magic which was part Hellenistic Hermes and part Egyptian Thoth. From these teachings we get the basis of the mystery schools like the Golden Dawn. Famous Hermeticists were Paracelsus, John Dee (Queen Elizabeth the 1st’s Astrologer and famous occultist) and Aleister Crowley.

Hermes is credited with being the originator of the houses, though astrological history is patchy around this time. Whole signs system ( and Equal house) described the Suns path around the ecliptic rather than the equator (Unlike later systems). The houses were supposed to exactly overlap the signs because they derived from the Zodiac on the ecliptic. 30 degrees each.

But the signs were really not important, the house/zodiac divisions of 12 were simply a way to ascertain the strength of a planet. The suns strength obviously stronger in high summer (Leo) than in winter (Aquarius). So from this came the system of dignities. Hellenistic Astrology was formed around this period. And this is where it just gets weird… Suddenly the system flips anti-clockwise, and it seems complex magical formulae took over from actual observation of the sky.

Hermetic Influence

“The Rule of Hermes and the hermetic house system are fragments remaining from this ancient mystery teaching. The comprehensive teaching was no longer understood, but it’s impact was such as to bring about the implementation of an anti-clockwise house system completely superceding the archaic clockwise system” [2]

Why did this happen? Maybe the reason the house systems were flipped is that they are supposed to be seen as two distinctly separate entities to be continued to be used together, not instead of. Today we use a combination of aspects, signs and houses to understand a planet. But I put it to you that (as Hand says), houses/signs form one element, aspects another and the next consideration is whether a planet is rising or culminating.

So why was this successful method of defining a planet dropped altogether? No one seems to know. My guess is that things were deliberately tampered with, rewritten and kept secreted for those in the higher echelons of the magic fraternity.  The masses were warned away from these power zones by naming the 12th house “The place of Bad Spirit”. This all rather suspiciously seems to coincide with the growing power of Christianity and the Dark ages where Astrology became more and more complex, muddled and maligned.

Eventually the Whole sign system was pretty much dropped and replaced by the unequal house systems of Porphyry, Placidus, Campanus and Regiomontanus to muddy the ground further. Interestingly the Whole signs system is one that remained in use by Sidereal Astrologers.

But I cannot discount the symbolism of the anti-clockwise house system altogether. Since I have used it for enough time to know it works 75% of the time. I just think it needs re-evaluating in the light of the Gauquelin evidence and the re-emergence of the Whole Signs system.

The Magic of Twelve

The knowledge that Whole sign houses are related to the 12 signs of the zodiac and the Hermetic tradition leads me to want to investigate further. Do the 12 houses relate to Numerology, the Tarot, Sacred Geometry and the Kabbala? And if so how? All these things have correspondences and must contain wisdom to help us understand the true meaning of each of the 12 houses.

Michael Schneider has made an interesting study of numbers in Constructing the Universe. He calls number 11 The Passageway. “The number eleven is quite a mystery. References in sacred literature, philosophy, art and architecture are rare and obscure, but they do exist. It was considered to trespass beyond 10, but incomplete approaching 12.”

When Uranus was discovered it opened up the Universe. Saturn was no longer the boundary. Micheal equates 10 with the earthly world (Saturn/Capricorn) and 12 as the cosmic world (Neptune/Pisces). Therefore the 11th is the bridge house to endless possibilities, but we are not yet there in reality. It is supposed to be our hopes and wishes, which fits very well with the Uranian 11th house and the number 11 in general.

Another reason that the anti-clockwise house system has a magic, is because of the “Hermetic rule” which looks at “The whole period from conception to birth as a time of preparation of the human being’s destiny, which subsequently unfolds between birth and death.” [3] This absolutely makes sense, that conception would be at the 1st house cusp and work through the houses below the horizon. The soul gestating in the nocturnal houses, the underbelly, in the darkness of the womb. And the baby does come into the world backwards in a way, upside down and head first!

Why Whole Signs?

  • The houses and signs work together. I regard the houses as our inner ecliptic, and it really makes no odds which hemisphere you are in either!
  • Whole sign houses will very often put 12th house planets in the 1st which visually supports Gauquelin’s evidence.
  • The AC, MC etc, are seen as points. Therefore the MC is freed from being anchored to the 10th and can be read as having an 8th, 9th or 10th influence if it happens to fall there. Incidentally in Ancient times the 10th house was known as the house of the Goddess (9th was The God” house) which explains why the 10th is associated with the Mother. Even though paradoxically we think of Saturn’s house as being very fatherly, it’s the mother who is often the disciplinarian.
  • Whole sign houses work at high latitude.
  •  It was the house system used while developing the Arabic parts.
  •  Whole sign houses correspond to 12 months. Roughly 29 days = 30 degs.
  • The Signs do not fight with the Fixed stars because they are taken off the ecliptic ring and are contained within the house meanings.

So this re-evaluation really effects those with stelliums in the 12th and 9th houses. If this applies to you, try the whole signs and see how this changes your chart and if it make more sense to you. If the planets still remain in the 12th and 9th just take a look at the Plus zones and evaluate the planet that way.

UPDATE 2013! This post is now 3 years old. At the time of writing I was still using Koch as my main houses system and was only experimenting with whole signs. I have since moved to using whole sign houses exclusively. I really need to update this post to explain why I have come to this conclusion more fully. I am also studying and bringing traditional astrology techniques into my practice which of course mainly advocate whole sign houses due to more evidence uncovered by Project Hindsight.

References:
1.Robert Powell. History of The Houses. Pg 26 & 17
3.Hermetic Astrology. Vol II Robert Powell

97 thoughts on “Whole Sign Houses

  1. @ Mr Funk. Robert Hand says that you use both the MC and the 10th house to determine career. 1st your look at MC and then 10th house gives you additional information. I will have to see how this works. But for me I would read them as totally separate. I read elsewhere that if your MC is in the 10th house then you are more likely to do what your parents expect of you, like continuing a family business. If the 9th or 11th, you’d choose your own path.

    There is precious little info on the 1st house cusp. I’d say it just symbolizes the constellation rising at your birth, possibly representing conception. But the AC is still the AC, not the 1st cusp, for me anyhow.
    If the AC is the soul, maybe the 1st house cusp is the physical body? I heard that the soul can enter the embryo at any time after conception. So that would make sense the 1st house cusp coming first.

    Maybe if there is a large gap between the 1st house cusp and the AC the soul enters later. It would be easy to divide it into trimesters. 1-10 degs = 1st trimester and so on. Just what popped into my head.

  2. Excellent research Marina, definitely 9th house stuff! That is a convincing argument for whole signs. My chart doesn’t change much from Placidus, still have the 9th house stellium but Uranus is much closer to the 10th house cusp.

    So with this system, what is the difference between the Midheaven and the 10th house cusp, and for that matter, what is the difference between the Ascendant and the 1st house cusp?

  3. I have personally speculated (on alt.astrology.moderated) that the Ascendant does not need to be connected to the first house cusp. I accept that the eastern local horizon at the time and place of birth identifies a point called the Ascendant/Descendant axis: however, I question whether the beginning of the first house at the Ascendant is proper in all cases. Consider diurnal planetary motion. Daily motion of the planets can be observed, and some planets operate better in day or night modes. Where then is the day and night boundary? If the portions of day and night are not exactly equal, then the local horizon does not form an accurate reference point for determination of the day/night boundary.

    Therefore the first and seventh house cusps must change!

    OK it’s a wacked-out idea but I liked how your article touches on the idea that the points are not necessarily tied to the houses (“Therefore the MC is freed from being anchored to the 10th”).

    …A

  4. We can have a preferred way to see things. And I am defending the whole thing in the “It’s all good baby!” (and valid) way.

    I guess the problem for me is I don’t enjoy using equal house systems because I learned in the beginning like that.. and felt that the expansion or contraction of houses and interceptions gave a little more personality and complexity to the charts when I read them.

    If I did my husband’s chart using the equal house theory, I would have to bend my mind away from the idea of intercepted houses (and how much of a quandary they can be!) towards the idea that everything is equal and points are just points… kind of hard for me mentally to bend this way when I see such late degrees on the ASC.. not just me but him as well!

    Astrology is a tool, and so we may have a diverse way to seeing these tools as custom made for us.. I mean its different when we think of sidereal charts compared to “western” and equal house compared to Koch or Placidus.. we learn differently and use tools differently but we tend to have a similarity somewhere that unites us. I like for example the exploration of Asteroids (as they lend more female oriented archetypes) as well as including Lilith, and BML.

    There are still Astrologers who don’t use Pluto and cast very accurate charts because they can see and study in the way they can understand. It doesn’t mean that they are wrong (or right!).

    I think about how differently people calculate things, for example someone may use a calculator and others may use and abacus others may use a computer, others may scratch lines on a paper.. some may use numbers and some may just look once and give a number without a written word.. nothing is right or wrong, just different.

    But its a good idea to write the history of things and why they work for you..and even give back up to why it works.. I don’t feel I can do that, in fact.

    I am still stuck into why I use asteroids and why I like them, and why I love the quintile aspect.

  5. Hi Marina and Jamie,
    For what its worth, Marina, the Indians have used the whole sign house system for two thousand years of recorded horoscopic astrology history (possibly longer), using also the sidereal zodiac. Personally, in such matters, I prefere the expert oppinion of select vedic practitioners based on their fine predictive track record.
    Jamie, if I can take a crack at answering your question, the whole sign house system means that the sign becomes the house, beginning at 0° and ending at 30°. However, according to the Systems’ Approach, the rising degree, say 8°, becomes the most effective point of the house. This means that a planet on or near this degree has a much bigger influence on the affairs indicated by that house, as well as the opposing house by way of opposition aspect, as well as on other houses touched by the aspects of the planet.
    Best wishes,
    Thor

  6. In defending a non-equal house system, looking at the sky from where I am, I take note that its unequal most of the times of year, considering midnight sun in the summer and 2 hours of sun in some places.. if any at all in the winter..

    so I guess my understanding of Placidus house system was that when I look at the sky, anywhere on earth, that the chart should relate to the difference of that sky, depending upon the geography and time of year. One can physically SEE for example any planets that may be above the earth in the sky, in the houses 7 to 12 in theory.. and sometimes when one creates a chart using a place in north Sweden, one may get some very interesting surprises in trying to understand just what is happening and what houses the Sun travels through and how it relates.

    Equal house system did work out well for me when I was younger for drawing up charts because when I was younger most people I knew were from the area… which was about 24 degrees N. My own chart was quite difficult in understanding at the time until I was about 14 and started understanding the different house theories. Now I’m here sitting at 60 (and sometimes 64) degrees N and I have to say, that there must certainly have been an idea of astrology by just looking at the sky… and looking up and seeing the Sun and Moon’s movements and sometimes never seeing it go down or come up on some occasions. (those people who made the stone OVALS must have really been watching that!)

    So this, I guess is the instinctual reason of why non-equal house charts can make sense. I also suspect that this as a tradition may be older than the idea of equal house systems. Think about the massive tradition in India.. where one has day and night quite equal most of the year, with little variation due to its location.. as well as the other places where the written tradition of Astrological study was preserved. Very few places in the world had a written tradition to continue so the Stone Circles (and Ovals) are evidence to a non-written idea of astronomical calculations that relate well to astrology..

    I lost my train of thought just putting it out there.. kind of feeling very Mercury retrograde right now.

    But I just thought I’d toss out a few of the ideas.. even if they make utterly no sense 😀

  7. Great responses! I’m quite whacked from putting it all together, but everyone’s raised some good points I want to answer properly when my brain is refreshed.

    For now all I can say is with house systems the important thing is not to use one just by default and question how it fits in with ones particular genre of Astrology.

    I don’t think one size fits all and I tend to agree with Alterego trip that nothing is right or wrong, just different.

  8. Great article Marina xo I didn’t know a lot of what you mention here so good stuff. So good, that I mat use this as a reference point to describe why I love using whole signs, as I only use placidus these days to avoid confusion in consultation. I have used whole signs now for pfft, 7 years? They’re good stuff and I LOVE the floating AC/MC, makes such a big difference

    My chart is a weird one again, or I’m just weird, both work! If I don’t use the signs, just the houses, placidus works a treat as it places my Sun in the 5th House. However, because I am also very career minded, but I have always, always, always put the kids first, no matter how single, how poor, how boohoo we have been – the 6th House works even better. But the whole kid/domestos thing gets lost without the Cancerian tag! Well, with placidus it sure does. BUT, whole signs does pop Venus into the 7th and I have a quincunx with my 12th House Moon going on there and that would make perfect sense to me in consultation, without using a sign based system!

    Yet again, great article, thanks muchly xo

  9. I have six planets in Leo in the 12th house. I think I invented the 12th house but not while I was looking…

  10. Looking at Gauquelin’s map I still don’t see how whole sign is always preferable. If your AC is an early degree of a sign, then the plus zone will still be in the 12th house. I really like the ancient technigue of going clockwise with just 4 quadrants staring at the AC, then these plus zones will match up perfectly. Will be definitely taking notice of this in readings from now on. Unfortunately there are NO options for this on SolarFire or the charts at astro.com. You HAVE to choose one of the house systems. I would like to post charts with no house system, just the AC and MC axis.

  11. I’m gonna print this article and the comments at some point. Extremely good information.

    Just for fun, I’m gonna redo my solar return using Whole House and see what it looks like.

    But not right now. My head blowing up from the NZ earthquake.

    Excellent, just excellent, Marina.

    1. Hi Rob, (this is the 3rd time I’ve tried to post this, so my apologies if you see it 3 times!!) I’m fascinated by your research into the six-pointed star and 12-pointes star in the birth chart…I’m an astrologer and was born with 2 interlocking grand trines…so its been a wonder and a mystery to me. How do you feel it is related to soul evolution…? If you have written any articles about this, on the way towards producing your book, can you refer me to them? Cheers for now, Lyvea

    2. Lyvea, there does seem to be a problem with the commenting function at the moment. Looks like they do come through eventually. Will look into it.

  12. “Do the 12 houses relate to Numerology, the Tarot, Sacred Geometry and the Cabbala? And if so how? All these things have correspondences and must contain wisdom to help us understand the true meaning of each of the 12 houses.”

    I would have to respond with an emphatic YES! Am currently working with a very advanced numerologist on the tie ins between the numerology and astrology – its a lifetimes work really, but, we will publish when we are ready….findings so far indicate that six point symbology (Star of David) provides powerful interface – each point carries a number/symbology of its own (that does incidentally tie in to Cabbalistic numerology) and, when the midpoints are taken into account, complete with the dynamic of relationship between the symbologies of the two points, you arrive at the twelve point star ie. (coincidentally!) the Equal House system. The correspondences are striking and do relate to soul evolution…..will be posting more at ‘owlmirror’ later this year when we have checked enough data and ‘crossed all the Ts’ etc

    Marina :Great responses! I’m quite whacked from putting it all together, but everyone’s raised some good points I want to answer properly when my brain is refreshed.

    Marina, this is a great article, very stimulating – I am not surprised you felt whacked; its a labour not so much of love as Passion! Please keep on researching and writing – theres a book in there and we need your visionary insight, courage and eloquence – love the responses! reminds me of an indigenous village, circle of elders….can almost smell the woodsmoke and see Venus rising as the Dawn comes up…………

    1. Hi Rob,
      I’d love to hear more from you about the six-pointed star… I have one in my birth chart. I’m an astrologer so of course it fascinates me. Yes, two interlocking grand trines (water and earth), with the MC and IC also being points of the star. Would like to read anything you have written about this, the numerology and symbolism of it…how it relates to “soul evolution” as you put it, etc.
      Also, I love your image of the particpants sitting around a campfire under the light of Venus! The poetry of astrology is about 90% of its power, as far as I am concerned. I always endevour to speak to my clients’ souls…during consultations…and of course they love it. Cheers for now, Lyvea Rose

  13. @ Alterego trip Aah! I just re-read your post again. So if we go for accurately representing the sky, then really then you have to question the Sun not physically being in Aries in the tropical Zodiac either.

    I’m glad I discovered that the equal house systems do not attempt to show the Sun against the sky. They just show the Sun against the ecliptic, which as someone who doesn’t use the tropical zodiac as anything more than co-ordinates, would make sense to me.

    Gauquelins system I think addresses the rising and culminating issue, which is a separate thing.

    The problem of merging the AC and MC with the house’s is that you aren’t quite sure what you are measuring. A symbolic system or a visual one.

  14. @ Rob. Wow! What you are doing sounds SO interesting. That book so needs to be written. The star of david thing sounds fab. Can’t wait to see it on your blog.

    @Parin. I hope you are using precession corrected charts because it makes a different totally. The only way I could do it before Solar fire was to use draw out my sidereal chart on Astro.com using fagan-bradley and then use that to draw up the solar return. It will give exactly the same set up as tropical but ofcourse you will get the sidereal signs instead. But the houses will be the same and ofcourse the aspects. Then you can check what aspects it makes to your Sidereal natal.

    I found the precessed chart more accurate so I switched. Thank God Solar fire has that option, as I cant bear to think of the maths involved….

  15. Art :
    I question whether the beginning of the first house at the Ascendant is proper in all cases. Consider diurnal planetary motion. Daily motion of the planets can be observed, and some planets operate better in day or night modes. Where then is the day and night boundary? If the portions of day and night are not exactly equal, then the local horizon does not form an accurate reference point for determination of the day/night boundary.

    Therefore the first and seventh house cusps must change!

    …A

    Oh gosh! Since I don’t really consider day and night operations of planets I haven’t looked at this. How would that work in Norway then? when you get midnight Suns?

    Do the quadrant systems show this and that’s why you get distorted houses?

    If you have an equal house system then the 12 divisions are just reflecting the way the ecliptic is divided. It doesn’t use the equator. Which is why I would’ve thought it’s more relevant to northern latitudes. If you use the clockwise quadrant system then would that be more accurate?

    I didn’t look too much into the Meridian system either, I think its supposed to be an accurate representation of the visual sky. Maybe Alter Ego Trip could tell us.
    Could you post the link to your discussion of this? Thanks!

  16. @Marina Funk
    so much there to what you say…I can’t begin to believe I would be accurately portraying the sky.. we all know that with the equinox, and its movement through out the years, it tends to suggest the movement of the Solar into one of those two “equal” signs.. (thinking Libra here.. randomly too so you may have to decipher my lack of language skills)

    I mean we have these four points we take as being the Cardinal points.. (and you delved so deliciously into the idea of the 12 signs as well I must add)

    So we have the Equinox points and the Solstice points.. its the stuff in between that sort of gets moved about quite allot depending upon where one is.

    In quite a confused Gemini Mercury mode, I think off the top of my head about why I do things and never really give substance to the LACK of accuracy that the things really represent, but the Solstice and Equinox points relating to the Cardinal signs is my “justification” of not taking the stars and their movements (which have changed over the eons of time) Even the Solstice and Equinox points must have changed.. and perspective under and over the equator certainly changes with those points.. as the beginning and end of seasons are in the reverse.

    I really loved the way your study and research provoked my thoughts though. It provokes me to try to understand the reason why I do something and not just because its different from the way I have learned it. Do you understand what I mean? I love the idea of trying to take apart what it is that I like and even if it doesn’t make sense, I want it to make sense. Thus I think what you wrote is not just important for getting an entire history out there in a very well communicated perspective but also for provoking (me) to try to see how I too have reasons and should learn how to back up my intuitive statements.

    As for Art’s question about the representation of those Midnight Sun Skies.. I have been only backwards engineering using Placidus and observing what the chart itself looks like (since I often consult Horary charts)

    Its interesting how it works because what I notice is that some houses get expanded and some get contracted into small slices.

    It makes it easier for me to get meaning out of specifics because for me it tests more “honest” if a question actually brings up things that relate to it in such a very random way. But I’m still testing stuff with that.. but not on a deliberate level. Just feeling out what happens and remembering if I get some surprising results of houses ruled by the same planet or such.

  17. Hello Marina!

    Nice piece of work here. My first teacher started me off with the idea that houses were more meaningful than signs and that planets in houses were more meaningful than signs and that conjuncted planets were more meaningful than signs, so I guess you can tell that I support your ideas!

    I have dabbled in Whole signs, but been committed to the Equal house for many years. In any case, I thought you may be interested in the idea that the conception happens at the IC and the birth happens at the AC. In that way, the body is determined by the AC and the soul enters at the IC.

    I learned this idea years ago, so I can’t even cite my source, probably my past teacher, Paul Reeder of Tucson, Arizona.

    If fourth house is Mother (I say it is!) then DNA, tribe, place, belonging, is all determined inside the Mother.

    Conception is the union of energy and matter, so the IC is the point of origin for the individual. Solar Fire has a prenatal feature. You might find it interesting.

  18. @Jewell Starsinger
    Thanks! Thats all great info. I like your 1st teacher!
    Conception at the IC makes sense to me and yes I always wondered about the 4th and 10th house swapping sexes, maybe in the days of the old matriarchal society’s the 4th house and Ic really would be the roots and mother. Somehow it got twisted round I think when Patriarchy came in.
    I didnt know Solar fire had the prenatal option, will check it out.
    I found an interesting theory about conception charts that was to do with the rule of Hermes. It says the Moon at conception is supposed to be at the same degree as the Ac at birth. Well I checked my daughter( who was a Cesarean birth, where its not supposed to work)
    But since I remembered the night she was conceived, I checked that night and wouldn’t you know her Moon WAS at the very same degree of her natal AC! Thats how I knew there had to be some truth in this Hermetic influence on houses.
    I used to like Paul Reeder very much, never met him personally but we corresponded a little bit on myspace. He seemed like a really lovely guy.

  19. Thank you Marina. In patriarchy we have 8 gods and 2 goddesses. It has always bothered me, so for the past 10 years I have been developing a balanced pantheon according to the keywords from various esoteric sources. It’s looking good and I hope to publish soon.

    Those traditional people are going to have a heyday with me! Your Uranian temperament is inspiring to me. By equal house I am Uranus rising, so let’s hear it for solidarity in going out on a limb!

    Oh yes, and by the way. The polarities are uni-gender. Aries/Libra=male, Taurus/Scorpio=female, Gemini/Sag=male, Cancer/Capricorn=female, Leo/Aquarius=male, Virgo/Pisces=female.

    I think the patriarchy is an out of balance bit of confusion, because of poor definitions. I am calling a spade a spade. For too long we have been calling spades motorcycles and everyone knows that just ain’t so.

    Male=energy, Female=matter. We can start here.

    1. Hi Jewell, I was a feminist at 16…and am now an astrologer in my 40s. It has bothered me for some time about the 8 gods and the two goddesses. I’ve been playing around with the asteroid goddesses – which signs might they “rule”…? Still experimenting, the fit isn’t obvious, unfortunately, at least not to me.
      Cant wait for your book re the new feminine rulers of the signs and the uni-gender pairs of signs. Yes, fire and air signs ought to be masculine and earth and water = feminine! Have you written an article or a synopsis of your book that is available now? I’m going to start using your system right away. Cheers, Lyvea

  20. Jewell Starsinger :

    “Thank you Marina. In patriarchy we have 8 gods and 2 goddesses. It has always bothered me, so for the past 10 years I have been developing a balanced pantheon according to the keywords from various esoteric sources. It’s looking good and I hope to publish soon. “

    Yes I always thought that too. We do have masculine and feminine signs, but that’s just the costumes.
    It’s men dressing up in Women’s clothes, like Shakespheres plays in Tudor times. But we have evolved. In this day an age it just looks like Pantomime Astrology to me!

    Time to bring in Ceres, Lilith, Eris and Pallas Athena on stage I reckon. I love how the Asteroid Goddesses are the bridges to the outers.
    The fixed Stars are pretty well balanced sex wise considering how old the constellations are.

  21. Whole sign houses will very often put 12th house planets in the 1st which visually supports Gauquelin’s evidence.

    Exactly! So many people with very strong personalities, who think they have a packed 12th house, actually have a packed 1st house. However, I do still think that Moon/12th is a good position for writers- writing demands an awful lot of time spent alone, and if you don’t enjoy spending time working alone, you’re probably not going to succeed as a writer.

  22. @ Astrofix. I don’t have anything in the 12th house, but my North Node was there in all the other systems. It moves into the 1st with whole signs. I REALLY like being a hermit and writing. I have only recently got like this after being more of a party girl in my 20s/30s.

    I think the whole signs 1st house might not be so much about being outgoing, but rather about being self-sufficient and self-motivated. So even if a previously 12th house planet comes out into the open, it’s still got a self-reliant quality. It is not needy of others.

  23. @Marina
    CF yours and Jewell’s conversation

    With Equal House I experience the three outer transpersonal planets + mercury moving forward a house – this looks like a refinement/upgrade on (my) aspiring 12th ho NN + AS….. fits also with where my writing/research is taking me

    With whole sign EVERYTHING moves forward and looks more like a picture of the inner alchemy that is required for soul evolution – there is a much stronger emphasis on 1/7 and 2/8 house axis’, balancing relationship dynamics and inner marriage/kundalini both as they are played out in person and as a reflection of ‘as within, so without’ – I am drawn to wonder if the shift to unequal house + ambiguation of houses as seperate from signs reflects shift towards more contemporary and prevelant material world views….??!! Could the older house/sign systems reflect a marriage as opposed to a seperation of spirit and matter….

  24. rob :
    I am drawn to wonder if the shift to unequal house + ambiguation of houses as seperate from signs reflects shift towards more contemporary and prevelant material world views….??!! Could the older house/sign systems reflect a marriage as opposed to a seperation of spirit and matter….

    Exactly! I was think “divide and conquer” while I was writing it. It all sounds a bit conspiratorial doesn’t it? But maybe it happened for a reason. There is something to having separation in order to study and refine the different elements, like alchemy. I think this revival in Whole Signs might be a very good sign. They have only recently added it to Astro.com after popular request.

    I kind of did that with the 4 Liliths. I then realized that maybe in splitting them up, I was diluting their power. So I now use just the Mean Lilith as standard. But I have a much greater understanding of her had I not did the separation study.

    1. If there is a revival of Whole Signs my hope is that it can be as another well understood, articulate and useful tool in our kit-bag and not as a draconian revival or neo-school. So often these are just plastering over old wounds and sense of loss….

      Neither is it about right and wrong.
      You cannot ‘divide and conquer’ an empowered individual – and an advancing wave of collectively connected, openminded, empowered individuals is unstoppable……….?

  25. @Marina
    This reflects in with basic universal numerology – the one (original unity) begat the two (dichotomy), and together they begat the three (dichotomy in unity) – enter the Uranian Age! as the three is the mother of all numbers, all of which bodes well

    the conspiratorial question hardly needs answering as the usurping of spiritual and individual freedom at the hands of Church and State is self evident….but, roots are the birth of new stock and

    Hermes was a very wise geezer…..

  26. Hello

    Thank you for this very interesting post about Houses-Systems.

    As a tool, once you experienced a system for a long time, it’s intellectually rich to change and see, as a way to get a fresher view and other insights; but it’s often quite a challenge to skip old habits and all the adjustments you’re used to.

    On a practical side, the full sign system, coupled with the use of precise aspects works ok, I think.

    Some years ago, i changed from Placidus to Equal System, but considering the cusp being on the middle of the House (as if it was the top of a hill, with progressive slopes of 15° on each side). It gives good results.

    Of course, the main thing, whatever the system chosen, is to be familiar and experienced with.

    Your new setting is even better!
    Always with pleasure _Smile

  27. The American Astrologer AT Mann has worked extensively with IC being the moment of conception etc – I think his book The Divine Plot (probably out of Print now) explained this in great detail – his theories drew from Gurdjieff, Ouspensky etc with a logarithmic system.
    I have a fully tennanted 12th house and I have been dismayed by the negativity poured on it by astrologers who should know better! Tracy Marks has a good understanding of the 12th house.
    Our understanding of astrology must expand – have we fully understood EXACTLY how a planet or star effects us? What is the actual mechanism? Astrology, due to computers, has become over mathematicised – we now need to examine exactly what it is – the force if you like – which actually affects and effects.
    Rupert Sheldrake, biologist, postulates a theory of morphic fields – the unseen which “contains” and dictates by agreement with an organism (or person) on how it will evolve and grow. Plasma science explains a network of interconnectedness which is electricity – revealing currents which pervade the universe and can travel infinite distances – the medium for this – plasma, the fourth state of matter – can self organise into cells of differing electrical characteristics – the electric force is 10 to the power 39 – i.e 1000 billion billion billion billion times more powerful than gravity.
    So we can see that this is a potent factor in the expression of life!
    How does it apply astrologically?
    Possibly the spark of a distant small star is far more relevant than a house placement according to an outmoded house system?
    I wonder too if there is any mileage in considering the astrology of nebulae since they are now prevalent points of study in astronomy and cosmology.
    Could an angle – be considered the equivalent of a Z pinch between two electrical currents or more? If so, then the moment of conception – a Z pinch of energies must be hugely important and its relation o the potentials of the Sun position extremely relevant in deciphering a life’s path.
    So much to know – astrology must always be tested and pushed beyond the boundaries!

    1. I’m a bit of a Sheldrake fan. Used to listen to him on podcasts with Terence Mckenna.
      I do like Maurice Fernandez book on the 12th house. I don’t understand why the 12th house got such a bad reputation yet the 2nd house opposite the 8th didn’t really. The house system (Like the signs) were all to do with what aspects were made to the AC. No ptolemic angle at all was deemed worst of all, even worst than a square!

  28. I have to wonder what Tad Mann would say about the Whole
    House System? His method takes into consideration the emphasis of the 9th house cusp being the Conception and the philosphy pointed out in the article, of conception to birth or counterclockwise.
    However, his method uses only the unequal houses.

    Very interesting article to consider and observe how the Whole House system might work for us .

    Maybe he’ll see this, as he is a follower of your blog.

  29. The problem comes when popular astrologers tell me things based upon whole house projections that have nothing at all to do with my chart or my life. My Placidian house cusps fall between 12 deg’s and 23 deg’s, so a planet entering a sign is still in a previous house.

  30. Here in the UK most birth certificates do not show a time of birth.

    My Mum told me I popped out at 20 past nine at night (Ha Ha Ha) she said the last bus was passing by !

    In the past some people did not know there date or day of birth when I asked them which is so sad.

    What ever house system you use, you cannot give a true or accurate interpretation of the planets using the 12 houses.

    When I read a birth chart I always kept an open mind because of this, and used clairvoyance and obtained information from a higher knowledge (it came from somewhere).

  31. Thank you for sharing, Marina. It is amazing with the whole sign house system finally I can see myself :-)Let´s see how it turns out with Mer turning direct.

  32. Thank you for this article. It does the best job of explaining Whole House that I’ve found as a beginner. It certainly explains some things that don’t make sense to me about my personal chart, and feeds a curiosity that was already there about why we moved from Whole House in the first place.

  33. Maybe the reason the clockwise system flipped to the counterclockwise system is because the earth flipped upside-down when Atlantis got blown to smithereens.

  34. Anyways, if you were using a clockwise system, wouldn’t you have to be looking North? If you’re facing south, the planets move through the zodiac counter-clockwise, but if you’re facing North, then you could say that they appear to be moving clockwise… Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer… etc.

  35. Hi Marina,

    i have also found whole system to work better, can u share your thoughts on the MC in whole system since it kinda loses its role dontcha think? I mean how do you interpret it?

    1. Actually I think of the MC as being specifically the career/life-calling point. This is just a theory, but maybe if the MC is another house other than the tenth is may be a career path that is not related or inherited from the parents. I think the 10th house is very closely related to the mother and authority figures. The need to impress in society depends very much how much you needed to prove yourself to mummy. Also how critical/accepting she was determines how your see the universe supporting or not supporting you as the case may be.

    2. interesting take on it being how we needed to prove ourselves to our moms. my sun in conjunct MC by 0’01. i have never felt loved or approved of by my mom, but we somehow get along as “equals” who push each other in various ways. not a loving connection but a painful cutting away the extraneous bullshit type of dynamic, spurring each other toward growth kind of–growth we wouldn’t seek on our own because we are so opposite in our outlooks, beliefs and demeanor. very weird relationship where we have respect for each other but not a mother-daughter connection. our ascendants are conjunct in Virgo decan 2. lol. she’s a Cap sun; i’m gem. always gotten along with my “elders” and have won their favor somehow by acting old myself probably since i was young.

    3. Compare your moon signs, and the aspects to the moon and it’s position in your birth chart.
      If you know your exact time of birth you can use the whole house system to get a better understanding of your mother daughter relationship.

  36. I’m starting to experiment with whole signs houses myself, but I must admit I find it difficult to let the chart talk to me, since I’m used to seeing things in specific places. I’m willing to continue exploring though, and I’m sure that if there’s juice in it for me, it’ll become obvious.
    One question Marina, have you started to use whole signs for solar returns as well?
    Have a great day! 🙂

  37. Im still learning astrology (slowly and self directed). But since I’ve been interested in learning more about the actually construction of the chart, I’ve been searching out information. Currently I’ve been using Koch, but I’d like to try whole house. Features article, I look forward to seeing your update.

  38. I’ve been intrigued with Whole Houses ever since I read Robert Hand’s book “Horoscope Symbols”. Beyond that I never explored it till reencountering in on FB groups.
    I’m still mulling it over, it really weirds out my chart (from the Koch/Placidus casting that I’m accustomed to). I’ll enjoy reading your updates.

  39. “Awesome! too hear.”
    the “whole sign house system”, has always made the most accurate soul sense, within my own self,
    after studying my chart and trying different house systems.

  40. I highly recommend the late French-born international astrologer Jacques Dorsan’s book (2011), The Clockwise House System. I thought I had independently come up (well, I did, since I had not seen Dorsan’s book yet at the time) with reversidereal-reversequalhouse readings in late 2012, but Dorsan beat me to publication. Dorsan’s original French gets botched a bit in the translation by the editors, who impose the PlacidUS-but-not-THEM house system when Dorsan made it very clear that he moved away from Placidus and to the equal house system. One can, of course, recalculate any of the charts Dorsan provides. Dorsan summarizes the work of Dr. Michel Gauquelin as well as a French astrologer before Gauquelin who had come to the same statistical conclusions. This pretty much eliminates the need to read Gauquelin’s book Cosmic Influences on Human Behavior. However, if one does turn to Gauquelin’s book, one will find from several of his charts that his contention that he could not prove the merit of a house system (he used Placidus) is debatable at best, for the visual evidence of his charts is just begging for a new statistician to mine his data, wherever it is, since a picture speaks a thousand words and his house-like charts really seem to show statistically significant differences, house by house, for all twelve houses. More imminently importantly, however, if we as astrologers wish to stick to our 1, 4, 7, & 10 angular story, then we had best begin doing what Dorsan did: read all our charts clockwise, so that Gauqeulin’s statistical evidence indeed holds true that the angular houses are the most important in any chart. If we combine Dorsan’s method with equal-house defender Pelletier’s contention that any planet within 5° of a house cusp is “suspect” for being in either of two houses — a contention that aligns 100% with how former Shearson Lehman Hutton SVP and cosmoscientist Ray Merriman has distinguished the characteristic fluctuations, percentagewise, in all known cycles, from the stock market, to those of the planets (which two subjects Merriman, of MMA Cycles, ties together like no other author, especially in his Volumes 1 on all known technical cycles and 3 on planetary correlations to significant stock market reversals). The other thing we need to do, especially with the surge of interest in fixed stars, is to return to the sidereal zodiac for the sake of consistency, and, well, “cosmic nature”. A reversidereal-reversequalhouse Gauquelin-“supported” (to some extent) reading truly opens up amazing new vistas in chart interpretation. To those of you frowning upon all of this, Dorsan worked in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, and stated that the signs in truth may be read in either direction. I agree that both directions provide insight. Right now we are, as a community of professionals, missing at least half of that insight, though, and that means that our consultees are, as well.

    Acharya Dan Konnor MBA SD
    Shakta Hindu Priest &
    Modern KMA(tm) Cosmoscientist

    1. Jason,

      Thank you for your feedback. I forgot to mention one item of some importance. If you (or anyone else reading this) test this first on your own chart, you may well wonder which Ayanamsha to use, since the top software programs often provide ten or so (and some of them are, well, quite wild, to be honest). My best advice is (1) virtually everyone in India uses Lahiri, (2) Fagan-Bradley is the late and respected Cyril Fagan’s attempt to improve upon Lahiri, and is always less than 1° apart from Lahiri, and if you are convinced of Fagan’s arguments in his book Zodiacs Old And New (do not expect an explanation of Fagan’s “improvement process” or results, just his philosophy regarding the Sidereal Vernal Point) then by all means use Fagan-Bradley, and (3) KP astrologers, a small minority in India use Ayanamsha Krishnamurti, but Krishnamurti just falls in the middle of Lahiri and Fagan-Bradley. All the other Ayanamshas are used only by a truly tiny number of cosmoscientists, so when tropical astrologers surface the Ayanamsha issue as if it were actually an issue and open to some sort of wide debate, that really just is not the case. Either way (Lahiri or Fagan-Bradley), expect about 83% of the cosmic influence points (planets, centaurs, asteroids, etc.) that you find meaningful and like to use to shift by one sign and much better match the natural star positions that we drifted away from with a misinterpretation and mistranslation of Ptolemy, which Jaques Dorsan also explains well in his book. Finally, I wish to thank the moderator, who is permitting this dialogue and who has a great site that I have visited many times for some excellent Western insights.

      Best wishes,
      Acharya Dan

  41. Finally! – (whole sign Fagan/Bradley) – puts my Saturn in the 12th house, which intuitively have known or suspected since day one!
    the only house system, which thy 100pct agree with,
    after realizing every other house system is wrong!
    well, at least too me, or for my chart anyway…….
    and I’m a 33 year old whom knows myself in and out, thick and through unto a T,
    and the kicker!
    knowing all about my mothers family history of occult magic, rituals, witchcraft, and curses! – all kinds of whack sh/t
    from moms side of the family history story,
    insanely stormy dark history.
    Pluto, Mars, Saturn, and Lilith…….. are all assembled in House twelve, when using
    (whole sign – sidereal – Fagan/Bradley)
    every other system will place saturn in ten and eleven,
    and would always drive me nuts! – because i knew!
    ’twas not correct! and have known about Hand using whole signs, plus!
    isn’t he…..?
    the magician sorcerer,
    joking,
    meaning he’s the expert guru of it all –
    well, somewhat tend too think so.

    so once again, thank you kindly for the super sensational beneficial information.
    P.S

    this site is a
    one of ah kind,
    something of
    some sorta – long lost,
    Egyptian Isis archaeological relic found!
    ’tis one true treasure gem!
    needed to add that along
    as well…….
    so thank you! – (darkstarastrololy.com)
    truly beneficial too!

  42. Marina, I just read your post about the Whole Sign House System and like the previous commenter stated, it validates the conclusion I had come to on my own. Even though I have not read Hand’s book or had no knowledge about Gauquelin and his theory, I too felt that something was incorrect or had been mixed up when it comes to the counterclockwise “tropical” method. So, thank you for this.

    One reason was because I always questioned why the house of hopes and wishes (the 11th) came after the house of professional pursuits, accolades, honors and fame (10th)? It just made no sense why it would follow the 10th. Our wishes and desires are usually a precursor to careers, positions and such. This can also suggest that the 11th is the house tied to money in respect to how easy or not, it is for an individual to make/have money.

    I also think it’s interesting the connection you make to the 11th house and the number itself in Numerology. I hadn’t thought of it from that angle- that they could be intertwined. I’m an eleven myself by birthdate and some of the descriptions I’ve read, strongly resonate with who I am as well.

    Another reason I was doubtful had to do with the sign the western system id’d my ASC as. I just didn’t see it as the way I present and express myself. Under the classic Whole sign system, I fit to the T.

    Another thing I had pondered is why wouldn’t the 4th House (in western) also include the birth per se? If the 4th is about the home, in my opinion the womb is like the first abode. The fetus-child is developing and growing snuggled up in a blanket of placenta, and then it’s flipped and thrusted out onto the earth. However after reading your assessment, if we look at the chart clockwise, then it’s possible that birth does actually fall between the first and twelfth houses.

    While I do believe that the Western method has some inaccuracies , like you, I do believe that the system can shed some light on certain aspects about our personalities and lives.

  43. I’m also in favor of whole house systems. Born with a very late degree ascendant myself, all my planets change houses when reading it by whole house system, compared to Placidus, Koch or Regiomontanus. When I read other people’s charts, I find that the whole house system describe their lives much better, even if sometimes it seems like the planets behave halfway in two houses, i.e., pick someone with a venus in capricorn in the 7th or 8th house there’s not much difference, or a luminary in cancer in the 4th or 5h house….
    IMO astrology has a lot of blurred boundaries of calculation and interpreation and modern astrologers get lost with so much precise aspects. One can get really paranoid with the exact calculation of a moon transit on a progressed mars that in the end won’t make any difference in life.
    But that’s the humble opinion of someone with Mercury conjunct Neptune in Antares, not very reliable ! hahaha!
    I was googling the history of house systems when I got to your site again. (btw google loves you eh?). I was looking for a timeline of house systems to especulate if the appearance of new house systems in the late middle ages helped to discredit the validity of astrology…. Thanks for the bibliographic reference, I’ll check Robert Powell!

  44. I’ve looked long and hard at Whole Signs for my chart and just cannot identify with it, though I’ve tried to remain open minded. I have a stellium which changes house, so in a way, perhaps it’s easier to identify which system fits me better, because it’s such a strong focus that is being shifted. There’s little denying that for myself at least, WS does not fit my life experience or interests/internal life – Placidus does. I’m still open to learning more, and would like to have my chart rectified as well (for greater accuracy).

    FWIW, there is a house system that works at ALL latitudes, and that is Topocentric, which I’m increasingly convinced by. It is very similar to Placidus.

    A couple of interesting links:
    https://www.astrowisdom.net/articles/in-search-of-best-house-system.htm
    https://www.astrowisdom.net/articles/new-topocentric-house-system.htm

  45. in whole signs, my chart is VERY different than in placidus or koch. i feel it “fits” however i feel koch and placidus is more accurate for me. one thing in particular really bothers me about my whole signs chart. in koch and placidus, my neptune-moon-jupiter stellium are in the 4th house. in whole systems, my stellium is in the 5th house. this is completely perplexing to me. i strongly dislike leo energy, so to have three of my planets now in the 5th house feels strange to me. i don’t even know how to interpret this.

    1. The 5th house is NOT Leo!! The 12 letter alphabet approach is a modern invention. It has it’s uses but it is totally misleading. I’d go as far as it being a Sun type house, creativity, fertility, children, love affairs…. It’s a trine energy too, because the 5th house is trine the ascendant.

  46. the 12th house has lots of potential for healing, spirituality, connection with the Ancestors. i don’t see the 12th house as dark or bad at all. i know a woman with lots of personal planets in her 12th house. she’s a channeler and healer. so, there ya go!

  47. I find myself very perplexed at this notion of Whole Sign houses suddenly supplanting all other house systems; for me, I would strongly reject the movement of my 5th house stellium in Pisces (NN, Pallas, Sun, Mercury in first 6 degrees) into the 6th house. It just does not fit my life, my desires or my experience. Especially with the current Neptune transit there — the results are SO 5th house!) In my case, Equal Houses would make much more sense. Why do you feel that Whole Signs are preferable to this?

    1. Yes thats quite a shift.. It really depends how you see the 6th house. For me whole signs makes sense in more ways than I can explain right now. I need to write another post really. But everyone is different and you have to use the house system that jives with your approach to astrology in general. For me sign = house makes total sense especially when doing horoscopes. It’s more cut and dried.

  48. I use Whole Sign as well, but am now wondering how to calculate the Arabic Parts. The Part of Marriage for example, uses the Asc and the 7th house. Would the 7th house just now be 0 degrees of that sign?

  49. Hi Marina

    I haven’t seem this post before, thank you for showing it!

    I think I should use whole signs then from now on. In my chart the only difference when changing to whole signs is that Saturn, Uranus and Neptune which are all in Capricorn in the 8th are place then in the 9th house which makes sense considering Saturn and Uranus rulers of the MC and that I’m going to live abroad soon.Anyway I need to study this whole signs more and test with my Finnish clients when I’m there…I hope they show up haha =)

    Which software do you use? Is it Janus?

    Thanks again

    Poema

  50. Well, seasons and planetary movement ARE related, so even if the western astrology used a season based rather than planetary movement based system, it is still influenced by the planets. Also, personality/sun signs in many cultures past and present do correspond with the seasons. Judging from comments, this fits many people, as well. I mean, how many of us are pretty darn similar to our sun sign descriptions? Sure, that’s not ‘all’ that we are, but it does fit our basic characteristics, most of the time. And since we operate within our own dominant cultural milleiu, whatever that may be, it makes even more sense. Similar to using gregorian calender, we are all operating economically, linear time and culturally within a dominant paradigm that is aligned with this modern era. To me, it makes sense to be fluent in more than one systme or language, allowing one to navigate through multiple systems. Many of us have quite a hard time in the current dominant system, in part b/c we are here to create or bring forth innovations or new approaches. Rather than trying to ‘find’ the astrology that fits our own model of what’s happening in our lives, I like the idea of using these tools to both explain what we already know but also to find a new way of utilizing this information. ie, rather than just ‘oh you have uranus and pluto in the second so money is unpredictable’, perhaps it’s a choice the soul made prior, in order to assure that he/she would bring in the new onto the material plane. And new and innovative always includes a plutonic energy, by design, as transformation or the old fall away. I just think none of these systems need be mutually exclusive, even as many may be currently outdated. The reality is, the manifest world shows that the seemingly outdated are still alive and well-lol. And we are all alive [and hopefully well], therefore we are operating within this same system. WE don’t live in a predominantly vedic culture, so that wisdom is active only in a small sphere of the world currently, and operates within pretty specific cultural norms, many archaic, as another example. Difficult to navigate without the right type of map for one’s vehicle. If it’s based on the map from another era or a different time/space location of consciousness, how useful is it? Very useful in terms of progressing one’s own evolution, but the ‘more limited’ approaches are still quite relevant to the terrain on which we current travel, IMO.

  51. The goddess can also be seen to represent that which is made manifest-which aligns with 10th house public eye and professional image, while 9th house is that which initiates that manifestation through inner alchemy [wisdom-which often comes from travel, religion, philosohpy, etc] of the ‘logos’. Saturn is discipline reuired to manifest that logos. Shakti/goddess is the manifest creation of shiva, while also being the void out of which all arises, just yin and yang unfolding eternally. Ultimately, it is the untamed creative force that the will must both listen to and then channel in order to create. This applies to both men and women. It is a wiley force that the intellectual mind must surrender to, in order to create anew, awaken spiritually, perform magic, etc, etc. This makes sense, then, as far as ‘disiplinarian’. That is why some cultures do talk about the absolute power of the goddess-as an energy, it is the driving force behind accessing latent potential, powers and innovation.

  52. I’ve noticed when whole sign houses are used the planet closest to the start of the 10th is in the highest position, while the MC in my chart for example is now in a lower 10th house position to the planet. Does this change the dynamics of the career point and planet in my case?

  53. I doubt that any changes or losses in the original intent of the houses had anything to do with Christianity. More or less, the original meaning of anything will eventually be lost as time goes on. People are like that – don’t like it, change it, manipulate it, etc. We have forgotten the true meaning of God and the Bible, and the messages He brought to us here. So you could say the same about the houses. I enjoy reading your thoughts but I think you need to chill out on your anti-Christ issues. I know in this day and age modern society uses Christianity as a weapon. It’s not.

    If you understand basic astronomy then anyone should know that Placidus, Koch, etc are NOT based on the motion of the planets, so it distorts positions and causes a lot of confusion. I really like the Azimuth system to be quite honest.

    As I read somewhere, the popular systems are mathematical and geared towards mathematicians. All those fancy numberings and such are good brain tickling ego stroking fodder, but complexity and mathematical brilliance isn’t illuminating.

  54. So Marina – are you saying that we should kind of just forget the concept of natural rulership of the houses? Is that what you are referring by the 12 letter alphabet approach? I always think of the 5th for example as how you described it but thought too that the Ego was expressed there and that is how Leo was assigned. As for the parental axis (another post) Liz Greene points out that whatever house you choose to assign to the parent (she favors the 4th for the father by stating that the mother grooms for social status) there is compensatory behavior by the other parent in the polarity and in a way it all begins to read as one. It gets confusing when you have the Moon and Saturn in the 4th as I do. Who is the father then? In my case, the mother was burdened by having to be more like the father but the father was not Moon like at all. Also the both planets are in is the Sun sign of the Mother and trine the Sun, which happens to be the sign of the father. How’s that for a mind twister? Whole signs puts my IC in the 3rd and I think this makes for a cleaner interpretation because it only occupied 2 degrees but was ruling the house. That never felt right to me.

  55. Hi Marina,
    I was looking through the 2015 horoscope and noticed that the July Venus/Jupiter conjunction falls directly on my Uranus at 21 Leo, after it has gone over my Uranus 3 times in its retrograde. Then the sept partial solar eclipse also falls conjunct it. I am a scorpio and in “transistion” and I have had all kinds of dreams of transformation.
    My Uranus is in the 11th house…sudden expansion of love through groups/friends?
    The solar eclipse on my Uranus in the 11th…new groups/friends?

    11/15/1959 3:22am Tarrytown NY Westchester County

  56. Debating house systems seems juvenile now that the world has long had access to the science of kinesiology which gathers the answers in seconds. By all means if any house system makes sense and feels right then all power to the one using it, but if those who are searching for the ‘most’ accurate, the kinesiologic answer always responds in the affirmative to Placidus.

    1. Thanks for that point – I’m a huge fan of crossing disciplines. I’ll test it out. Of course of the person doing the testing has a placid preference – this might influence the subject? Do you do all the pre-requisites like testing for hydration and if you have permission to ask that specific question and so on?
      Plus I’m sure once our lives are so much more complex than when most house systems were invented we need to add things/meanings into them?

  57. Marina – good stuff on the Gauquelin research. Re 12th house – I think its the area of self-undoing (lower mind undoing) to understand and accommodate the Self – experience of Oneness. Much is lost in translation over the years! Would the whole house system – or indeed any house system take into account everything in the solar system and the solar system itself is being drawn in a spiral rather than ever repeating circles? I’m trying to work this out but with out diagrams…. my brain gags!!!

    1. the spermal spiral of consciousness ,goes far beyond the solar system and universe ,the vastness of the electromagnetic pulse reverberates from ,formlessness into form and form, into formlessness, ie the medicineless hospitals ,in china ,where cancer tumour disappears, in less than 3 seconds. the so called miraculous awaits in the wings. the detail changes ,camelian like and cant be nailed in dense material.

  58. the grandfather paradox,if I shoot my grandfather, I cant exist,but the electromagnetic energy, saros series, for instance ,starts and finishes at a certain time,in the quantum field ,out side time and space,energy can be in all versions, at once,so its not either or, but both and. the twisting ethereal dna cables transmit higher vaut -ages infinitely.

    1. see the electromagnetic moment, frozen in time ,the frequency of aspects, shown inside the chart, the prana /chi ,the life force, continues after death ,so its not limited to time and space.

  59. Ok my chart is heavy with action in the ninth and twelfth houses, under whole sign house calculation, NONE of it seems accurate (compared to placidus or whatever, which i have appplied to myself since first learning my chart). Even reading about the differences in house calculation makes me feel worse about my faith in astrology… Wish I didn’t know about this.

    1. I think whole signs works naturally with traditional astrology techniques. I swear by whole signs now. My clients say it’s accurate so I’m sticking with that. I think it’s hard to evaluate a system just using yourself, though in the beginning we all do that!

  60. I love using the Whole House system, because I have always hated interceptions. And with my chart, the Whole system puts my Virgo stellinium into the 8th house. That fits me perfectly. And I have been working on people that I know and it is perfect for their personalities. I had used the Equal system for a while and it is okay, but I really hate it when the planets are in one sign and are put into a different house. Haha. Give me the Whole House System over all of the others.

  61. I too am thankful for the Whole House system. I hope you update this article, I would love to hear more of your thoughts and findings on this.

  62. I have been using Koch for years (personally, I’m not a pro astrologer) and just looked into whole house yesterday, and I have to say, DAMN it really makes so much more sense to me! Just looking at my chart and my husbands, it really, really clicks. Thanks for posting this and I’m looking forward to your update!

  63. Hey,

    I am really interested on your approach on astrology. I am studying all kind of occult subjects, and have been interested for years to take such direction in astrology as well. I love astrology, but most of it these days seems to be too superficial and “new age-y”.
    I would be tempted to read more about this house system, and what in total is associated with the houses, if you abandon the association with houses and zodiac signs. And do you know which house systems were used in e.g. Golden Dawn? I am currently reading “Complete astrological writings” by Crowley, but he doesn’t mention it.. Also a little bit amused by a switch from a very strong “12th house moon” to a “1st house lunatic”, and that my stellium in 4th would now be in 5th. I can see this, but it takes a little bit time to adjust I guess… 🙂

    1. I have no idea about Crowley I’m afraid. I would assume he wouldn’t have used whole signs since they have been revived from way back. Therefore they would not have been popular in Crowley’s time.

    2. Thanks for your reply! Yeah i got curious since you mentioned the hermetic stuff- so are you saying that in the dawning of hermeticism this house system got strange? In my deck of hermetic tarot there are all sorts of quite complex decanate- and rulership- things going on. Very fascinating but quite puzzling at times.

  64. Hey, my starting to think that the constellations have little or no influence on us seeing as they are so far away, and with the precession of the equinox’ sit wouldn’t make sense, so then what is it that influences us? Where do these energies come from? Is it simply the geometric alignment of the planets to our Earth? Is it that the seasons (ie. Aries is start of spring therefore such and such an influence) affects us? If so, the southern hemishepere would be opposite the northern, and seasons aren’t so reliable, some years they start completely out of whack and on the equator there is no spring etc. So, do you think it is still the stars? Or something different all together?

    Also, could you expand on how the whole sign system actually looks in a physical way? I’m trying to get my head around how the heavens are being divided, say if one was in Sweden, going off the ecliptic would mean drawing a circle around Sweden perpendicular to the Mid Heaven or where the sun actually travels?

    Thanks
    Daniel

    1. Wow, what a question! I might have to do a youtube video to answer this. With whole signs its more to do with numerology and the way the western world thinks in terms of 12. It’s just how our minds our wired. Sign equals house, but there is no physical slicing of the sky. I think the heavens are a projection of the aggregate Northern Hemisphere mind. White Australians are still wired to the northern hemisphere so there is no need to make adjustments. Chinese astrology works for East Asians because it was born out of Chinese peoples minds, culture and geography, same for Tropical Astrology. This is why the Vedics resonate more with sidereal astrology, as they don’t have a seasonal mindset. Native Europeans have a bitter Winter which is why we are so obsessed with the return of the Sun. That sensibility never leaves us, even if we move to a non-seasonal place.
      The simple answer. It’s the seasons that affect us!

    2. With reference to Marina’s comment: I would like to point out that in East Asia there is, indeed, a seasonal mindset, but a different one than that of ours in more northerly areas; that is, the monsoon season, which is as important to that area’s agriculture and other important aspects of life as the winter is to those of us farther north. The same could be said of places like the Middle East, the Mediterranean, and most of Africa. In the Middle East, for example, there is a rainy season (winter), and in Egypt the season of the Nile’s flooding (and corresponding dry seasons). While seasons may not look/feel the same in these areas as they do to those of us farther north, they are still seasons that the ancients tracked very carefully. So the suggestion that “Vedics” are siderealists because “they don’t have a seasonal mindset” doesn’t hold up. We must be careful how we assess things from a distance.
      It’s more likely that the Vedic system is sidereal because it may be, at least in part, rooted in the ancient Babylonian (sidereal) system, and/or because basing astrological calculations on the fixed stars’ positions makes more sense than basing them on local weather patterns, which fluctuate and which vary from region to region.

  65. I stumbled on Whole Sign and it has been quite a revelation. Most significantly it moved my Sun and Mercury from my 12th to my first, the descriptions of – as first house occupants – finally made sense!

    Do you happen to know any sites that use whole sign as the base for daily transit reports? I currently use astrology online but that is strictly Placidus.

    thank you

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