Kali Subdued

The death of a young girl a result of a brutal gang rape has India in mourning. The psychiatry student was pronounced dead at 4.45am in a Singapore hospital Saturday 29 2012 from severe internal injuries. Sadly this is not uncommon in a country that reveres its Goddesses, but yet, up until 1983 it was still legal for a man to rape his wife.

Rape cases in India have doubled between 1990 and 2008 according to official figures and a high percentage of these are underage. Samar Halarnkar for the Hindustan Times states “Men abuse women in every society, but few males do it with as much impunity, violence and regularity as the Indian male.” The title of the article is “Death Of Kali” where he also details that if women do not stay within their male prescribed humble limits then they are become the perfect prey for abuse “If Kali – the goddess with the big attitude – lived among us, she would be an especially tempting target.”

India Horoscope

If one looks at the chart for the Independence of India it’s very interesting that Eris, the western Kali archetype is rising and conjunct the North Node. Mars opposite on India’s south node. The male/female polarity, and a fair deal in marriage is obviously something that India needs to address in order to evolve. Eris in the mix just highlights the importance of equal rights and the discord which is surfacing as a result of the imbalance. Mars is strong on the marriage house, at worst this is
violence towards spouse on self-sacrificial, dutiful fixed star Porrima in constellation Virgo.

It is also poignant that Vivian Robson has this star as listed as Caphir “An Atonement Offering” and “The Submissive One”. Referring to this title, Eric Morse says; “The Arabic title Caphir (infidel) no doubt springs from the Islamic revulsion of pagan goddesses”. Mars on this star also gives trouble with the opposite sex and marriage partner. This area of the zodiac can demand that the female make a personal sacrifice in order to benefit her husband.

India HoroscopeThere is a Yod to Ceres from a wide Moon conjunct Lilith ” This combination has to successfully merge the paradox of the virgin and the whore or the very worst manifestation of Lilith can surface. There will be a glorification of the feminine. In unenlightened men this can veer to the misogynistic, as they detest feeling so beholden to the devouring mother. They can alternate between worshiping and then abusing females”.

Ceres is of course the ultimate Mother and amplifies the mother/whore complex, and the quincunx from Moon/Lilith shows this country has to work on some karmic adjustment in this area. Uranus is the final piece of the jigsaw, freedom and liberation in the domestic environment (conjunct the IC) is called for. Last but not least we have the Sun square Moon which very obviously shows in plain terms the challenging dynamics between the men and women of India.

Delhi Gang Rape Horoscope

Delhi Gang RapeWe have a precise time for the the horrific incident. On December 16 2012 we still had the Lilith conjunct Jupiter in a boomerang Yod which has already claimed the deaths of young children around the world. Jupiter/Lilith extra powerful on archangel star Aldebaran. We looked at the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting chart and the MC of that chart was conjunct the Solar Eclipse degree 22º Scorpio. Unbelievably the IC of this chart is also on the eclipse degree which was on the Kundalini/Lilith star Unukalhai. Some of it’s key words ” controversy, activists, feminists, protesters, vehemently pro or against, shocking deaths, abduction, domestic violence, wife beaters”

Mercury (Children) is in the heart of the Scorpion on the intense and sometimes vicious star Antares while the Sun is on the poisonous stinger of the Scorpion Lesath which I classed as one of the Psycho stars. That toxic Sun opposite Ceres ” There can be an over-idealisation of the mothering role, in extreme cases this can lead to misogyny in men. Ceres opposite the sun can be ripe for exhibiting the virgin/whore syndrome in certain men. In the case of women, the whore is projected onto another woman”. It was also the day of the Venus square Neptune which is another aspect that can put women on a pedestal. Venus was on Toliman, “Relationships to female persons often seem spoiled… Disturbances, riots, periods of storm and stress and revolt against curtailment of freedom.”

Wherever you turn there is something nasty in this chart. There is a build up of intense and powerful aspects, that on their own would probably not do too much damage, but together and in the wrong hands are a recipe for disaster. Pluto as part of the Yod was on Facies. The South Node on Algol and as I already mentioned the IC on Unukalhai, all stars we have covered here at Darkstar astrology due to their notoriety. Lastly Sedna on the MC, The Magi Astrologers regard Sedna to be the epitome of evilness

” Sedna symbolizes.. products that promote violence and or emotionless sex. Sedna is so insidious that it helps nobody.. Sedna will eat the person alive.”  There is possibility for this life not being lost in vain. For Sedna I wrote “The lesson here is not accepting being the victim, turning the situation round and turning an extreme negative into an extreme positive.”

Delhi gang rape horoscopeMoon trine Lilith “brings an abundance of charm and charisma to the personality that is extremely persuasive. This is witchcraft of the highest calibre” and Moon trine Jupiter “Within the family they are the big protector, the bosom that everyone runs to…They will get on the Jupiter pulpit if they see injustice in the world” points to recovery and healing from this terrible crime against women.

The fact that this act had galvanised such strong protests and created such mass mourning, points to this incident as being another symptom of Uranus square Pluto. In fact when we look at the transits to the chart for the chart for India, we can see that transiting Uranus by precession at the time of the gang rape was conjunct the Independence Of India chart AC by only 12′.

Delhi Gang RapeIt is ironic that India is the place so many westerners go for spiritual enlightenment when its treatment of women is so very “unenlightened”. Despite Hinduism being a polytheistic religion that gives respect to Goddesses, it doesn’t make it any less immune to the same Goddess/Whore problems that we in the west suffer with monotheism. This Jupiter/Lilith Yod is harsh, but it is forcing humanity to address its human rights and to realise that in many countries across the world “witches” are still being “burned”.

152 thoughts on “Kali Subdued

  1. yes, i expected this is going in india with a high rise gang rapes inclusive of revelutions but not remembered the location where it occurs when the venus enters in scorpio. because i have seen venus opposition jupiter is occuring ( highsexual harrasements(occured on so many ,bank robery with legal(occured)) and i expected neelam (INDIA) with sandy(US) WHEN EARTH QUAKE OCCURED BEFORE THROUGH JUPITER 18′-19′ IN GEMINI WITH MARS IN SAGGITARUS 18′-19 THROUGH FIXED STARS CHART.

  2. Hi Marina

    This is such disturbing news. It would be nice to see a turnaround with how women are portrayed and hopefully this new energy will make for the empowerment needed.

    I am a little concerned…I am going to India end of January to mid february…is this an ok time to go astrologically? Looking at my 2013 horoscopes for sun cap and ascend gemini looks good but have neptune opposite my virgo that activates in feb is the only thing i could see being negative in february…

    1. Neptune is not all negative, depends on what it is opposite, but a retreat to somewhere so traditionally mystical and a place of quiet meditation sounds just the ticket to me. As far as safety in India goes, don’t let fear stop your pioneering spirit, but of course take normal care and keep good company.

    2. That’s good to hear Marina…definitely looking forward to the trip especially to Nepal :-). There will be couple days when I’m on own I will manifest someone +ve being there with me and continue to remember my sacredness…I also just realized that’s when all the planets will finally be direct so that should be a bonus :-)…

      Neptune is opposite my sun in 4 degree virgo…so the year may pose some challenges but I will make effort to be wise to prevent any deception.

      As for the women in India I truly wish for them to remember the Goddesses within themselves…maybe when I’m there I would be able to do a little something for them to inspire them in taking charge of their lives. May the universe give me the strength to be that medium.

    3. I am sure that the women remember the Goddess within and are heavily inspired to take charge of their lives. I doubt any woman anywhere in the world accepts this type of crime. However, as history dictates it will take good men in power to out weigh the ‘bad’, to begin the process of change. Hopefully, this tragic loss will begin a process of legal change which can allow them to, what do you say, remember the Goddess within, which is so easy to do when the legal system permits the luxury.

    4. Hi Aerial

      Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. I am an indian woman, not raised in India but know how these women value themselves. Unfortunately, not all remember who they truly are and that is the unfortunate part. It sometimes takes stronger women to remind them of who they are capable of being. Being raised in an indian culture you learn to live in social norms of what the duties are but you forget to truly follow what the heart believes and wants. One forgets what is truly valuable. This is not just in the indian culture but happens in many places around the world.

      And you’re right it will take good men in power to outweigh the bad, but it will also take good women to do so as well. It will take all those who believe in human values be it man or woman to come together and set an example for a new way of thinking and living. Unity with goodness and Love is what needs to prevail for humankind to come out of a dichotomy world.

    5. Please accept my humblest of apologies as someone from the actual culture, whether raised within or not, you would have a far greater insight into the workings as such than I. I do hope that you are the inspiration that you see is needed. Best wishes to you

    6. THANKQ,

    7. “And you’re right it will take good men in power to outweigh the bad, but it will also take good women to do so as well. It will take all those who believe in human values be it man or woman to come together and set an example for a new way of thinking and living. Unity with goodness and Love is what needs to prevail for humankind to come out of a dichotomy world.”

      I think that you’ve made some very profound points Astro. I’m also an Indian born woman, raised abroad. India needs major reforms, including and especially equal rights and privileges for women. It’s a very complex and difficult undertaking and I’m sad that the process has moved slower than hoped but I think it’s inevitable with globalization. If I were still living in India, I’m sure I’d be a feminist as there’s much work to be done. Instead destiny brought me to Canada where I see that Feminism needs reform. One of the reasons I speak out about Feminism in western countries is because we need to set an example for countries like India. I believe that one of the big mistakes in the west is that Feminism has taken on an “us” versus “them” mentality instead of men and women coming together to work towards bringing needed change/reform/equality.

    8. Thanks Aerial for the well wishes, no apologies needed as everyone has right to their opinion and experiences and I was by no means offended. Happy New Year!!!

      Thanks Jonnala for your well wishes, not sure where your harsh words were but you know best. Happy New Year to you too!!!

      Hi Chiron…(no name)…thank you for sharing your experience. It is a pleasure that you see another side to feminism after experiencing life in Canada. Yes, its true that life somehow takes it to a “us vs them” approach. I feel by coming out of the box and being able to see two sides of a coin is important as well as being able to see the complete picture.

      I always wonder why are things the way they are? Imbalance exists all around the world. We are all energy, we are all connected…with a physical body that separates two people..so why so many profound differences that set us apart from one another.

      We’ve gone through much of the dark ages when society has been ruled by the mind and logic…the result has been much violence and disease and chaos around the world. It’s time to be aware for all of us how beautiful the world could be if we lead by living with our hearts and being centered and grounded with the mind. Both need to be balanced. I feel the time has come many are aware of this now and it’s time for them to come together and create this change that will be better for everyone. Being true to your own vehicle will automatically cut down so many diseases by peeling away all the layers and eventually lead to a decrease in violence. We all need to learn to hear our own voices…as it’s the voice within that has been forgotten. It is time to awaken the God and Goddesses with us all.

      Much Blessings!!!

    9. Astro, thanks for your reply and I appreciate your thoughts. I made another comment on this thread about evil in the world. I’m not sure that at this time it’s realistic that all people can ‘lead by living with our hearts and being centered and grounded with the mind’ with both being balanced because some people have mental disturbances or personality disorders. For example, psychopaths don’t have the ability to have empathy and they don’t have the same moral compass as the rest of us which can make them very dangerous to the rest of us. I think that if we’re to see peace in the world and make it safer we must focus more on awareness/understanding/research in the mental health area.

    10. Hi Chiron

      Thank you for sharing.

      I completely agree with you in that degree of awareness/understanding/research (this is what i mean with the balance of mind and heart approach)…but it begins at the political level…there is so much repression that begins at the political and governmental level…if a mother has children and represses them…they are going to retaliate…if a mother guides them in doing their best in choosing their paths…some will excel over others….if a mother thinks one child is better than the other then one child will develop jealousy…but that is where proper guidance comes in…

      Take for instance…we have a govt and political system that allows mainly lawyers to be in the govt system…this represses the rest of the country…for it is a representation that the lawyers / medical doctors are the one with voices…what about the rest of the people…they don’t have voices…if you look at the health care system…psychologists/nutritionists/alternative health care…don’t have much of a voice in the western world…

      I have a cousin who wants to loves helping and has much compassion and understanding and wants to work in washington dc…she hates law but decides to do law now because that’s the only way she could do what she wants…so now she has to disrespect her own heart to go where she wants in life…

      Also, In the workplace if the manager is not caring or respecting the workers…workers will not respect the manager…

      Change needs to begin at the top 1st…and the understanding and awareness needs to be incorporated there. The research is already there (not just in health care but in other areas as well but it is lacking the understanding and awareness. I would love to see this be incorporated now for the start…this will still cause disruptions since the world has incorporated a structural system that was not supportive for many years. To create a proper structural system that is affective and growth oriented and supportive to many will take alot of hard work, compassion, understanding and awareness and alot of team work…but I feel begins at the top level 1st.

    11. A turn around shall never happen until Women take back their sacredness, starting with countries where we do NOT get killed for it! I have done so, but strangely most of my stockholm syndrome afflicted female friends refuse to… actually verbally attack me when I call attention to MOTHERS/FEMALES of all Creatures, being the Creatrixes of life (ps, sperm is NOT a reproductive cell, the EGG is!)

    12. Don’t be as sexist as your enemy sierra, and it is not Stockholm syndrome when I say…not all men rape and our eggs do nothing without sperm.

      My thoughts to this poor girl, her family, and anyone experiencing such atrocity. May something come from this so all of these lives are not lost in vain

    13. I was going to write something else and have it accompany the picture and then I deleted what I wrote and forgot to delete the picture. Sorry about that.
      My thoughts are also to this poor girl, her family, and anyone experiencing such atrocity and I also hope that something comes from this so all of these lives are not lost in vain.

      What I was going to say is that Stockholm syndrome also affects men. My maternal uncle in India has a very disturbed and abusive wife and it’s been really hard for the rest of the family to see that. My uncle is very gentle, kind and timid but also loving and loyal to my aunt who is ruthless in taking advantage of these traits. She reminds me of that Kali picture.

  3. This goes on everywhere we attribute the birth/creation of life to males. Oh gee, thats all over this planet…huh… How ludicrous!

  4. Thank you for going into this in depth Marina, this, like Sandy Hook is such a sickening event

  5. Hi M,
    While the rape tragedy in India is awful, rape is so common place in SA – the “rape capital of the world” yet stories like this don’t even make the international news – extreme political correctness? Maybe. It is estimated that a sexual offence takes place in SA every 26 seconds. SECONDS. – one study said 36 seconds. So maybe its 30… SOme of the offences are so vile it would make you sick to read about them.
    Also worth noting the case against Lost Prophets member, Ian Watkins who is on a charge of conspriacy to rape a baby. Yes, you read that correctly. H’e in custody having been found in possession of extreme animal porn and indecent photos of children.
    I did a quick look – he has PLuto conj Ceres which I think is very Kali.
    I’m wondering if this story from India is going to create a world wide ripple. The issue is on a primeval level, its not political is biological. For all the “progress” with genetics etc we seem to be making no progress with the human species at animal level.

    1. “Gangs have always provided great opportunities for young psychopaths. Their impulsive, selfish, callous, egocentric and aggressive tendencies easily blend in with – and even set the tone for – many of the gang’s activities.”
      “Without Conscience” Dr Robert Hare, p176
      In regards to the delhi rape, police say the suspects raped the girl and beat her and her male companion (fiance) with iron rods before throwing them off the bus and then tried to run them over. This sounds pretty psychopathic to me.

      It’s sad that India, a country with a history of incredible spiritual wisdom and enlightenment has denigrated to the state it’s become. My mother always says we’re living in an age of Kuljug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalyug and when I go to India (last trip 2003) I better understand what she means with the institutionalized corruption and chaos. People often fear the police, politicians and others in power who are supposed to protect them because they’re involved in criminal activity. It’s a dog-eat-dog world which I think many people in the west would have difficulty comprehending. I think that if there’s to be real change in dealing with evil in the world we need to focus more on awareness/research/understanding about mental disturbances and personality disorders.

  6. Just to add, Kali is an extreme expression of the kundalini. She has an equivalent in Aztec mythology – Tzitzimitl, who also had the lolling tongue and mad eyes. Tzitzimitl had twin serpents between her legs, suggesting the double helix of kundalini. Both goddesses are often portrayed with garlands of skulls as they brought death and destruction. Kali’s arrival was heralded by the howling of a white wolf. This is interesting because Zeus in his destrcutive mode had the white horse Pagasus to herald his arrival and Wepwaet, the precursor to Anubis was a jackal with a white head who was the “opener of the ways of the underworld” unlike Anubis who was just the guardian.
    Perhaps this force of kundalini becomes amplified in a collective or group and when it does its destructive power is amplified.

    1. Hiya Uber, That’s interesting about the white animals. I’m wondering about the Kail figure because it really is so extreme looking isnt it? The symbolic manifestation of India’s great fear of female sexuality. But every culture has its own version of that fear. What makes Kali different is she’s so in your face and no Lilith snakes. Tzitzimitl is very similar looking, but with snakes. In the west we have Medusa of course.

    2. No, Kali has snakes – it just depends on which statue or image you’re looking at.

      “Kali is portrayed mostly in two forms: the popular four-armed form and the ten-armed Mahakali form. In both of her forms, she is described as being black in color but is most often depicted as blue in popular Indian art. Her eyes are described as red with intoxication, and in absolute rage, her hair is shown disheveled, small fangs sometimes protrude out of her mouth, and her tongue is lolling. She is often shown naked or just wearing a skirt made of human arms or snakes and a garland of human heads. She is also accompanied by serpents and a jackal while standing on a seemingly dead Shiva, usually right foot forward to symbolize the more popular Dakshinamarga or right-handed path, as opposed to the more infamous and transgressive Vamamarga or left-handed path.”
      She has another relative in Coatlicue – a female deity of the Aztecs who is incredibly similar. She also wears a skirt made of serpents. Her name actually means skirt of serpents!
      I think both these goddesses represent kundalini in its most raw form. When kundalini is stuck in the base chakra or mooadhara it can result in some nasty stuff. There are aspects of this in many godesses.

    3. Wow, so it’s always serpents isnt it? I think its amazing the world over there are so many overlaps of the myths.

  7. ——focus on kwan yin———-

    in the modern judicial world,
    it is not asy to attain justice for the raped.

    legal system is bloated and dysfunctional.
    if a family tries to make their own justice they will be arrested for murder, even though its best option for everyone…

    instead we must wait for the hearts to be weighed in the underworld, next to the holy feather of maat. and then their hearts will surely be eaten..

    I wish Kali was really here she would eliminate thousands of wicked souls blessed with hands of evil.
    they deserve suffering and pain, never forgiveness.

    “With our thoughts we make the world.” – buddha

  8. master and man tensions too, a desire for freedom, (aquarius/venus/jupiter/opp/leo/pluto/grand trine/libra/neptune/nn/mars). arrogant aries first/hs makes a violent partner, business, marrage,family.
    victim of own beauty, the indian woman needs man for protection, change of role also aquarius/aries loves an audience…the whole world IS watching.

    sandy hook was capricorn moon/cong/mars so he carried it out, better if he left it in his head.

  9. Indian law prohibits a rape victim to be named – this probably protects the attacker too. It does remind me that Indians practiced “sati” until the British sought to ban it. Although in some rural areas it has been practiced in the 20th and 21st Century. For those who don’t know, this was the practice of a widow being burned to death following her husband’s demise. A less extreme version was that the woman became housebound. Her life in effect was over. Indian men have to accept that women are not accessories but then many women in the world in all countries behave as if they are by choice.

    1. “Sati”, yes another awful thing. Rural areas… “becoming housebound” thing happens in the rural areas of Sicily too where my family come from. My widowed grandmother has only just stopped wearing black after 28 years. And I don’t think I have seen her go further than the front door except for the odd wedding. When I was staying with her she used to send me to the shop 100 yards away for bread.

    2. Is that her Marina??
      Kentish town used to be full of these “black grannies”… widows written off after the husband died. The Greeks and CYpriots had the same custom. I suppose for their era it was what happened – although – and its a big one – perhaps for women who knew nothing more of life than marriage, homemaking, child rearing it was a signal to the world that that part of life was done. If it was me (oh hang on…!!!) I’d write a book!!! What a relief not to be a wife and/or mother any more!
      It does seem though that there are some nasty practices against women in certain parts of the world – e.g the veil, which all seem to point to men having a problem with self control. I suspect that the men who raped the poor Delhi girl, who was with her boyfriend, assumed she was a loose woman.
      But as I said in an earlier post – this kind of thing is endemic in SOuth Africa and its not the province of a particular religion, its just a primitive animal kind of behaviour.

    3. Oh yes I should of said. That’s my nonna maria outside her house. My sister took it because she was next to a car full of my uncles CARDONE!! We have a joke about these being the worst veg in the world and when they are in season we are forced to eat tons of these celery like greens baked in breadcrumbs. I like the way there is a great big cross hanging on the washing line. I’m not sure what it is though. A table cloth….anyway.. off topic..

      I didn’t know the girl was with her boyfriend! She had a a chaperone then. I wonder if there was some row between him and the guys and they raped her to teach him a lesson, it seems along the lines of this primitive mind set. Oh yes and the self control bit too. I thought we had evolved past mad dogs…

      My grand mother used to gasp about myself and my female couson going off in a car with our female mate. Three girls, in a car, driving to other villages!!? Shocking…. she said people would think we were prostitutes!

    4. Yeah, for some reason there’s little info about the Indian rape victim’s fiancé who was a victim too.

      Like your grandmother, Marina, I find that so many women in India need to embrace a change in attitudes and beliefs. For example, my aunt was adamant that she wanted to have a son and kept trying until she had one because she thought that males are better than females. She didn’t have any family pressure to conceive a son it was just her belief system. She put my cousin brother on a pedestal and gave him extreme preferential treatment compared to his sisters.

      Women are a major socializing force which gives them power but I see many Indian women are reluctant to break down their traditional beliefs. However this is crucial if women are going to rise in society in India. It also shows that it’s a complex process that doesn’t simply involve men needing to change as we’re often led to believe.

    5. From what I’ve read in today’s papers it seems that gang rape of women in India can be an organised and deliberate male response to womens’ growing freedom to do what many of us take for granted – go out for the evening. A punishment. apparently these guys were outraged at the girl’s being out with a man she wasn’t married to.
      Mind you, my sister (who some of you may remember!)recently greeted the news that her fourth grandchild will be a girl with the words “oh no! How dreadful, that’s ruined my Xmas!”. Given the right social circumstances she would probably insist on an abortion or to have the poor mite exposed at birth in Richmond park.

    6. Reading the reports, it seems it was a gang who went out to have “fun” – i.e get into trouble. There’s an account on wiki which regales their actions/motives etc

    7. motherhood is (was) sacred there, Italy…not much is sacred in the eastern countries now, while the ruins of piety last..kali was god to the thuggies until the rest of the population grew tierd of strangled bodies and scorched earth, genocide them.

  10. Hi!

    Coatlicue, mother of Huizilopochtli. The Supreme Mother. She got pregnant of him -Supreme God for the Aztecs when Spaniards came- by a feather that got inside her, while sweeping the Mountain of the Serpents (Coatepec).

    The rest of the children -Coyolxauki, who ended killed and ripped by her brothers and became the moon and it´s phases (members ripped from the torax)- and the others, were envious and went to kill her mother, the once Tonanztin (sweet mother archetype, La Morenita, the recovered and synchretized Guadalupe, a catholic virgin with dark skin).

    Very dynamic and hard to comprehend archetype, with dual meaning (easy to understand if we place ourselves just feeling the shadow…).

    The myth explained, though I did not find an English versión. History cannel, Spanish versión). Though, the images speak for themselves.




    1. Rocio, I think they’re both basically Venus. WHen Venus arrived as a comet in our solar system, her magneto-tail took on many forms. But because of the close proximity to Earth.Sun/Mars the magneto-tail interacted and caused some awful events. To start with, Venus’ tail was highly active with gamma radiation. Devastation and floods followed until she was “settled” in our solar system. So I think this is why the archetype is so violent and dark. This video explains it beautifully. All the symbols are there – dragons, princesses, serpents, gorgons, witches etc! It seems the princess and the hag are the same thing!

      I suppose when things like this occur – the comet – and they are visible as celestial phenomena, then the ancients thought they were gods and were afraid but full of awe.
      I think thelate Paul Pearsall described awe as the emotion for god or godlike things!

    2. Funny synchro. I have been researching Eris and ended up with Ishtar and Innana, both origins of Venus. Just watched the link. I’d watched the whole set of “Thunderbolts” on youtube. But watching this again has really helped with understanding Eris. Venus the witch star and the long hair!! Great stuff. Also I didn’t know that Inanna was that fiery either. I had ignored her a bit as Ereshkigal seemed way more exciting, but it seems they are one and the same. That’s why I think there is a case for Eris being the new ruler of Libra.

    3. I loved watching Symbols of an Alien Sky!! It was an interesting take on ancient myths.

  11. I think the archetype is basically violence which is a human quality in many shapes and forms. People can have both sides to them – be cruel and kind.
    Kali destroys but out of destruction regrowth is possible.

  12. This has been weighing on my mind, for sometime now… I wonder is the solution, to this violence, doesn’t lie with what we teach girls about themselves, but what we teach boys about themselves?
    We, women are sacred and goddesses, but in reclaiming that, have we simply cast men as base animals, unteachable, with no control over their urges? If they ‘bite’, they must be put down, like a ‘vicious’ dog.
    I wonder if our sons have been placed within the same confines that we, women have been placed in for centuries.

    1. I used to teach boys. WHat I learned is that boys need men – proper men – as role models. MOdern education, certainlyin the west has become too feminised for most boys.
      A male has to go through a lot of changes to become a male right from fertilisation. He spends his gestation inside a female, then he is delivered from a female then he is brought up by a female with hopefully a male in the wings, waiting until he is of the age when he needs to learn what he is.
      Alas, boys resent women always telling them what to do and how to be. Fair enough. But the men need to teach their boys how to behave towards women.
      The problem – that bad role models just get passed down the chain. There are other complex issues in that the brains of males and females are wired differently. This is proven by MRI scans on males and females performing certain tasks.
      I personally don’t htink there is any such thing as equality, I think there are differences which have to be accommodated since they are hardwired. The bottom line is respect the difference but also learn about it and how to live with it.
      By nature of course, males are less able to do this than females.
      Sigh. Big sigh.

    2. I think I agree with you both there. Problem with knife gangs in London tend to be boys brought up without a father desperate for male bonding and a sense of Saturn authority. What is annoying is that the “single mothers” get the rap for it, but not all of them choose to be that way.

      This came on my iphone while I was jogging this morning and I thought. Blimey, this is very relevant to this discussion.

    3. very funny! It reminds me of the scene in Natural Born Killers with the Indian shaman and the snake too!

    4. There is a picture in one of the British newspapers of an Indian actress taking part in one of the demonstrations. She is holding a placard saying ‘We are not goddesses, we are equal”
      To declare women sacred is to make us subject to the taboos of sacredness. In its most negative form, a reductio ad absurdum, this justifies the actions of people who regard a woman behaving like a human being to be defiled and dishonoured and fit only to be destroyed. A fallen goddess is abominable.
      The feminine is sacred; so is the masculine; so is life.

    5. great point about polarizing women so the only way to deal w/ us is in extremes

    6. Personally I’m a bit bored with things being sacred… either it all is as the creation of God or its not… becuae its only humans saying what is sacred – then who has the authority? So as you say, Rachel, …so is life.

    7. CrushedLotus, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ve also spent time thinking about the solution to violence as I grew up in a deeply patriarchal culture and spent most of my life in a depression because of an abusive father. My journey led to some very disturbing discoveries about western feminism and the unlikely place where I feel I must advocate for injustices done to males (I have Eris on Alderamin). In Canada, I feel that we have become a male-bashing culture and as a result they endure negative stereotypes. I do believe that ‘our sons’ have been placed within the same confines that we, women have been placed in for centuries. I feel that the bottom line is that as a society, we don’t respect their differences, or learn about it and how to live with it. One of my favorite books is William Pollack’s “Real Boys: Rescuing Our Sons from the Myths of Boyhood” and it’s an excellent and insightful read on this topic.

    8. Here’s a quote from Chuck Palahniuk’s book “Choke”

      “I mean, I’m just tired of being wrong all the time just because I’m a guy. I mean how many times can everybody tell you that you’re the oppressive, prejudiced enemy before you give up and become the enemy.
      I mean a male, chauvinist pig isn’t born, he’s made, and more and more of them are being made by women. After long enough you just roll over and accept the fact that you’re a sexist, bigoted, insensitive, crude, cretinist cretin. Women are right. You’re wrong.
      You get used to the idea.
      You live down to expectations.
      Even if the shoe doesn’t fit, you’ll shrink to fill it.
      I mean, in a world without god aren’t mothers the new god? The last sacred unassailable position. Isn’t motherhood the last perfect magical miracle? But a miracle that isn’t possible for men, and maybe men say they’re glad not to give birth, all the pain and blood, but really that’s just so much sour grapes. For sure, men can’t do anything near as incredible. Upper body strength, abstract thought, phalluses – any advantage men appear to have are pretty token.
      You can’t even hammer a nail with a phallus.
      Women are already born so far ahead ability – wise. The day a man can give birth, that’s when we can start talking about equal rights.”

    9. Don’t you just love how I started a discussion and then disappeared.
      Post a Comment, you pretty much nailed what I was trying to say. We have turned the very things that makes boys men, into a personality defect. We drug our little boys when they act like boys. We don’t nurture the differences. We have in essence become a culture that says “Anything boys can do, girls can do better!” So men grow up believing they don’t have anything to bring to table.
      In india, these boys were treated as favoured sons, but they are the first generation to really feel the effects of ‘western feminism’ and selective abortion. The ratio’s are so skewed that many of these boys will denied the right of passage called marriage. The current generation of women have embraced feminism are better educated capable of supporting themselves and really have the freedom to take their pick of men. The groom’s family now have to compete for brides.

    10. Hi CrushedLotus, sorry for my delayed reply as I’ve been quite busy lately. According to author Hanna Rosin we’re seeing the beginning of a shift in preference for a female child in countries like India and China so this will make the ratio even more skewed. India’s such a land of extremes – while a segment of society is clinging to old traditions, another is racing to embrace everything Western and changes are happening in rapid speed. The detrimental impact of a generation of innocent young males is going under the radar even though it impacts the rest of society. I’m glad you started this discussion because I’m hoping that these U square P yrs will manifest a revolution for men/males.

      In the West we’ve already seen the fruits of 40 years of feminist activism and the cultural consequences of the unprecedented changes are rarely discussed or addressed. According to Hanna Rosin’s article, “The End of Men” https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/308135/2/ Women are starting to dominate middle management and professional careers. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, women now hold 51.4 percent of managerial and professional jobs—up from 26.1 percent in 1980. They make up 54 percent of all accountants and hold about half of all banking and insurance jobs. About a third of America’s physicians are now women, as are 45 percent of associates in law firms—and both those percentages are rising fast. A quiet revolution is happening in America’s colleges and professional schools where women now earn 60 percent of master’s degrees, about half of all law and medical degrees, and 42 percent of all M.B.A.s. Women earn almost 60 percent of all bachelor’s degrees and men are now more likely than women to hold only a high-school diploma.

      How do males who’ve been socialized all their life to believe that their value is as a breadwinner handle these changing dynamics? I think we should care.

    11. This is seriously twisted whinging! ‘men behave like this because women make them’ blaming women for male insecurity because we are able to give birth as though it’s some sort of magic trick.
      Of course real masculinity(not machismo or patriarchy) is in crisis, and I would argue that this is happening because for centuries, millennia even, we all, men and women, have been complicit in a lie, but the cracks are showing.
      I was brought up to believe that the male ego is such a fragile thing that you must never let a guy realise that you are better than him at something. ‘WTF? get over it’ was my adolescent response, and still is.
      If the only way to be assured of the protection of an enduring relationship,or, in the extreme, to avoid dreadful violence, is for women to act dumb and feeble then the game is up.
      I am fortunate enough to live in a part of the world where I can do things my way without persecution or oppression but the devil is in the details…
      I had a male friend once who thought it was terrifically funny to break wind in front of me and I laughed along. One day I did it back and he was utterly disgusted! I’m afraid we have a long way to go before a lot of men fully accept that women are human, but it’s Lilith’s work in progress!

    12. Rachel, you’ve made some interesting arguments which reminds me of a university Gender Studies (aka Women’s Studies) course I took last year.

      I agree that masculinity is in crisis, but I’m not sure what you mean by “real masculinity”. We need to hear the concerns of males but when they try to speak they’re often shamed or ridiculed as whining and yet their thoughts/feelings/voices are so important for our acceptance and understanding of their humanity. I hope for a day when men’s studies courses are common place in schools. There’s so many pressing issues to deal with but the one that pulls at my heartstrings the most is the skewed suicide rates in so many countries. In Canada, there’s three times more male suicides than females. I wonder when as a society we’re going to start paying attention to what’s happening to ‘our sons’ before we lose more of them.

      Canada Male suicide rate: https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/hlth66e-eng.htm

      Canada Female suicide rate: https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/hlth66f-eng.htm

      World Health Organization suicide rates by country, year and sex https://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/

    13. The male ego is still fragile and cannot take being wrong. I don’t know why but women seem forever to be trying to protect the feelings of the male and his ego.
      I even find myself doing this with my husband. The peace must be upheld even when it has no business to!

    14. I have just caught up with this discussion and I have to say. I’m pretty astounded at the Chuck Palahniuk quote! I must agree with Rachel and Uber. If the male ego is fragile, then its certainly not women’s fault that it’s that way. I was also brought up in a culture that says a woman isn’t complete without a man. Re: My grandmother.

      Post a comment. If those statistics are correct then so much the better. Once men get used to taking orders from women as we have done from them without question for thousands of years and it is seen as commonplace and nor an aberration then maybe the Chuck Palahniuki mindset will slowly become extinct.

      I have noticed that the primary care giver to children ( no matter what sex) gets shat on most of all. Anyone who is naturally disposed to caring is also automatically self-sacrificial. All our ego’s (male or female.) seem to bite the hand that feeds it while putting on a pedestal the absent parent (I have seen this first hand when the absent parent is the female, but most often it IS the male). I think the human race has been raised by a masochistic society and I think that is due to the imbalance in world religions which are strongly weighted towards men as gods.

      I liked what Eckhart Tolle in “The Power of Now.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle has to say about women’s pain body. He says that women are at the forefront of the spiritual transformation that has to take place on this planet if we are to survive as a species. I can’t believe men are suffering in isolation here. If men are suffering, you can bet your bottom dollar any female close to them is too! Therefore this impacts both sexes.

    15. “With forgiveness, your victim identity dissolves, and your true power emerges – the power of Presence. Instead of blaming the darkness you bring in the light”.
      ~Eckhart Tolle

      Uberqueen, I’m surprised and saddened by your reply which you posted right after I posted mine about the disturbing statistics on male suicide. Marina, did you just say “if those statistics are correct, so much the better!!? Suicide is a very complex and devastating issue. I would imagine that it takes a great deal of pain and suffering to decide to end one’s life. We as women can continue the pervasive insensitivity towards the plight of males, or we heal and decide to show compassion and understanding of our gender differences.

      I have hope and faith that more women will decide to take the high road instead of falling for the politics to ‘victimology’ that defines western feminism.

    16. Marina, I posted the comment about suicides last night after this thread was dormant for several days so I thought you had replied to my most recent comment.

      I noticed that the number of comments to this article have gone berserk after I posted my three comments last night. The conversation here keeps seem to be moving towards a “us” versus “them” focus/theme which I mentioned before is one of the biggest mistakes of western feminism. It reminds me of your January 11 New Moon “Alluring” article “This new moon will make us question some of our senses, but it allows us to develop ones we don’t usually use in compensation. For magicians, tricksters, advertisers and spin-doctors this is a boom time. If you have anything to pitch, use this time to sell it. You will be able to sell ice to Eskimos, but are liable to suffer frostbite as soon as the seductive soundtrack starts to fade.”

      You wrote that Eckhart Tolle says that women are at the forefront of the spiritual transformation that has to take place on this planet if we are to survive as a species, but based on many of the comments today, I think we have a long ways to go. I will repeat that I have hope and faith that more women will decide to take the high road instead of falling for the politics of ‘victimology’ that defines western feminism …and embrace equal compassion, understanding and empathy for males as they do for females.

    17. So then, I guess my revision, then should be:

      Uberqueen and Marina, I’m surprised and saddened by your reply which you posted right after I posted mine about the disturbing statistics on male suicide.

      Marina, in response to your comment: “Once men get used to taking orders from women as we have done from them without question for thousands of years and it is seen as commonplace and nor an aberration then maybe the Chuck Palahniuki mindset will slowly become extinct.”

      I will remind you that I wrote: We need to hear the concerns of males but when they try to speak they’re often shamed or ridiculed as whining and yet their thoughts/feelings/voices are so important for our acceptance and understanding of their humanity.


      “With forgiveness, your victim identity dissolves, and your true power emerges – the power of Presence. Instead of blaming the darkness you bring in the light”.
      ~Eckhart Tolle

  13. Hi!

    While I grew in a world of men (and my mother was quite unable to sustain herself), they seemed to me very capable, though frightening because of manipulation.

    When I got married, Pablo seemed much more soft (and did not like soccer…) and I felt very happy. Through the years, he showed his ugly face of the adolescent he so much likes to play out! Horrible! For some years, I sustained the whole thing, until I was tired (mostly, because he would not let me take proper attn. to my children and spoke nasty things of me with them!).

    And now my son… I can´t believe it! He used to be so responsable and structured and now he is a person I don´t really like. I feel worried and just *ask* myself NOT to be codependent with him, and just let him take his good lessons that life always provides us with.

    And about Venus formation, Science says otherwise! The formation of the Planetary System occured long before Life was to be sustainable on Earth. And rocky planets seemed to have cooled of 2.6 million years. The only thing that seems amazing for scientists, is that Venus did not créate, or explurged a moon (and the rest of the planets have plenty of them; we are the only ones that appear to have only one).


    In this case, I do rely on what Science says. And profoundly know that there must have been events that we just are not able to grasp, and that we do not understand. Otherwise, how can we explain that all cultures have myths that have so much similarities. We have a long way to go.

    And I did enjoyed the video -thanks UQW!- which makes me sigh so much about stories I like sooo much!

    Be well all of you!


  14. I´ve been thinking about my son. In my family, men were highly praised. Though, in Pablo´s family -mother came from Uruguay and was born in Austria- women were the top. And they critisized men all the time. I find myself sometimes critisizing my son. Nobody may really grow and be mature under such a system! So har for me to find balance…

    Thanks for the insights!


  15. 1/7/12 ~ I am new here online. I found the above Comments very interesting. Going back to the Delhi Gang rape and discussing violence against women in general it is plain to see that a lot of men have a negative hatred towards women. It comes from early childhood, the environment and as a result of their relationships with women in general.

    Many men do not see women as equals, but more as the weaker sex. This puffs up the endangered male ego and can put him in the role of a protector or, in another situation, a persecutor.

    We need to see each other without the usual sexual stereotypes and defense mechanisms. I myself am First and Foremost a humane being before any other self-identity.

    Namaste! Peter S. Lopez AKA @Peta_de_Aztlan
    Sacramento, California c/s

    1. Namaste Peter, in regards to violence against women, I noticed that you left out psychological reasons as a cause. We’ve been conditioned to believe that only sociological factors are the reason for violence against women but socio-biological research is emerging that shows the influence of personality disorders regarding the chronic ‘abusive personality’.

      I was born in India and raised in Canada so I’ve been privileged to have been part of two diverse cultures. In Canada, I see a very different picture where many women don’t see men as equals, but more as the weaker sex. And dare I say the unspoken reality that a lot of women have a ‘negative hatred’ towards men.

    2. If you can find it, there was a very useful book written about 15 years ago called Why Men Don’t Iron.
      Basically, the male and female brains are wired differently and for biological reasons. The problems arose because the sociological reasons go against the biological ones.
      As usual it works in the favour of men.
      When the sexual revolution of the 60s too place this was based and made possible by the invention of the birth control pill. Birth control was to free women from unwanted pregnancy but soon progressed or regressed, depending which way you see it, into sex becoming a huge recreational business. Women enjoyed sex more yes, but males got more of the benefits in that they were absolved from virtually all responsibility in the act. Rather than go through a process of becoming adults, boyhood has extended. And worse, lad culture has extended to women.
      I’m not sure you can separate biological from sociological since the world runs to accommodate the body.
      Psychological, on a lot of cases is still too connected tot the needs and desires of the body.
      I do see a lot of women seeing themselves as superior to men. I see us as different with an equal mix of complimentary qualities as antagonistic.
      Perhaps the problems we face are sociological in that the idea of the modern family is still an economic unit which best serves state. Marriage is a sociological institution which does very little for the people in it but is bound by law.
      Perhaps the rules a society implies are the ones it also founders on?

    3. Uberqueen, first of all, I mentioned socio-biological research on domestic violence which combines sociology and biology so we agree on that. It’s the feminist paradigm on violence against women that holds that violence by men is due to only sociological reasons. Feminists tend to resist psychological explanations of wife assault because these psychological explanations would mean that assaultive men had personal inadequacies and that these issues rather than the general culture caused the violence(1)

      Secondly, we’re also in agreement that a lot of women see themselves as superior to men and we are different with an equal mix of complimentary qualities as antagonistic. Perhaps that’s why researchers have discovered an alarming rate of violence in western countries against husbands perpetrated by their spouses. This problem is hidden/suppressed and also under the radar

      (1) Dutton, Donald G.. Rethinking Domestic Violence. 2006. p 95.

    4. Of course men get abused, I’ve slapped a few around in my time. They asked for it…
      You know, I think bottom line its counter productive to divide people into males and females all the time.
      We need to get honest and accept that we are all subject to fear.
      When a couple get together they enter a world of possibility which is largely built on dreams – because the reality has not been lived. Then the veil starts to drop. People argue. They realise the beloved isn’t a reflection of themselves or even the dream man/woman they had in mind. Then the inherited and childhood paterns come out, then the disappointment then the struggle to survive the reciprocal oppression and the tyranny of relationship. We look for all manner of things in relationship – mother/father/friend/lover/support/victim/tormentor etc and usually unconsciously. We try and mould ourselves into an institution – the shape of marriage – with hope we will be OK – to shore us up against the fear of being stranded.
      Sometimes it works. Sometimes not. Always a price.
      And all the time – when we look for a soul mate, we don’t even know what our soul wants.
      But to go back to the original point of the thread and the Delhi rape – we can’t “politicize” everything to do with sex or man v woman. There is another aspect and ironically this story comes from India – we need to see why the drives of the base chakra are as they are in some and not others. This is nothing to do with social class since an over stimulated base chakra can be an issue in either sex in any class. Perhaps some people are just more animal than others? Or become more animal at certain times?
      Lastly, we are reacting to something which may well be karmic on many levels so perhaps our reactions also need examining? Perhaps the poor men who felt compelled to commit such awful acts need compassion – as Pythia said earlier – ficus on Kwan Yin.
      This story tests us on many levels.

    5. men will never know the imbalance of respect in society of being a female regardless of the unspoken negative hatred towards men, never

  16. big businesses around the world should pull the plug on every call center in India until they get their shit together about this, that loss of income would no doubt bring some sense into the equation. Send the work to the Phillipines instead, do the rounds and clean up the world quicker than the UN anyday

    1. Alas there is worse in Africa – gang rape is common in South Africa and never makes the Western or northern hemisphere news. The stats are appalling (think I posted this at the beginning of the topic?

      But I just had a thought – in our efforts to compete/become equal to/surpass men in the world we mostly have to cauterize the very thing which defines femininity – the body.
      Women’s bodies deal with stresses totally differently from mens’. Under stress, males produce testosterone – which makes then fight more. Women produce cortisol which is the flight not fight stress hormone. So we might be taking on more stress than we can actually handle in certain situations. I remember reading an article on the uprise of female baldness especially in women working in the banking or other high stress areas. It seems our “freedoms” in the modern world come at a chemical price – we have to use pharma to get to where we want to be on the whole – birth control pills play havoc with our bodies.
      We pump ourselves with chemicals, do terrible things to our bodies, drink like men (in the UK certainly) wear business suits to emulate them, demand the “freedoms” they have – but really, where has it got us?
      Men are still boys at the age of 40, men are still raping and abusing, women suddenly realising at the age of 40 they want a husband and kids…
      I met a gorgeous Zimbabwean lady two years ago, a mathematician for a big think tank for Africa. She had her kids aged 16-18. Her education did not suffer because her mother and grandmother helped look after her kids. Her own daughter was doing Maths in Australia and her son was in NY studying film. She and her kids’ Dad were no longer together but still friends. She was 38 when I met her.
      My point is – no one went against nature here. She reproduced when her body was at its prime (by African standards) and didn’t rely on a male but on her experienced female elders to help her. She and her kids thrive.
      Marriage is a patriarchal fix for outdated patterns of economics in many cases. So I have to ask, why do women still desire it?

    2. poor Africa and South Africa, what can be done? Please keep sharing your stories, as you say, over here we know nothing of what truly happens

      I love what you know Uber, and yes, what has the freedom brought us, more pressure and more sickness.

      I chose marriage because I love my mate and he treats me respectfully, but it has taken numerous divorces, lots of external judgements and loss of respect in society to find partnership contentment. For me, marriage and kids was my life aspiration and I chased it, until I caught it.

    3. I don’t know what can be done in SA – there have even been marches lead by the Christian clergy to raise awareness against sex attacks. There are daily incidents of child rape where babies have been internally damaged and require surgery or have died. Muti (the use of body parts for magic) is a real issue too and muti murders have been committed in Europe.
      I’m, really glad you have a marriage with a respectful loving mate, Damnsel – I think I hanker to be one of those women who retired to a convent in her later years!

    4. oh no, that is nothing but horrific, words just don’t even describe 🙁

    5. In answer to your last sentence. “Marriage is a patriarchal fix for outdated patterns of economics in many cases. So I have to ask, why do women still desire it?”

      I think somehow we think we need a man to protect us. One thing we as females lack is physical heavy muscular strength (though I do try!). The sort of brawn that moves heavy furniture and can use a power tool. I used to have a friend who was a hardened feminist, but when I was married she used to whine at me. “its ok for you, you have a man to help you “fix up your kitchen, protect you from noisy youths, drive you around…” etc, etc And then I thought, oh yes I am so lucky… 😉

    6. good points M! Now I can use a power tool to a point – I have put up shelves and they stayed up! I have even laid a wooden floor (hysterical! After the two weeks it took to do it I had a beer belly since I was swigging Rolling Rock and I had huge muscles on my sawing hand and forearm!) But actually I don’t want to put up shelves! I’d rather paint or write but my selfish self indulgent entitlement ridden ex decided a career in drink and drugs suited him more than being a decent father…
      When I needed my power drill to go into brickwork I had to ask my neighbour – he was a heavyweight boxer! Nice!

    7. Haha, going back to ‘Why Men don’t Iron’…I haven’t read it because even the title incenses me like the Mars and Venus thing. It’s a spectrum thing. I don’t iron, lots of men I know do, and enjoy it. I don’t like shopping either, unless it’s for power tools. Call me a freak but a morning spent fixing a tap is SO much more satisfying to me than a morning spent cleaning. An old boyfriend is currently housesitting for me, and was much amused by the fact that I was grunting and swearing under the kitchen sink while he held the tap for me and made soup – he’s hopeless at the simplest diy job and would have called a plumber. Bless him, he’s not in the least threatened by my wrench wielding antics and I’m in awe of his Libran social skills. Hurrah. That’s all I have ever demanded of my relationships with men, to enjoy doing stuff without being told I can’t or shouldn’t on the basis of my gender.

    8. The title “Why Men Don’t Iron is a bit lightweight for the content! But its basically the science behind the differences in how male/female brains are wired.
      Libran males can be so prissy! I’ve cavorted with a coupe and lived with one… they are USELESS in a crisis so just as well you know how to fix a tap.
      The differences in male/female brains are best seen when an MRI scan charts responses to challenges. Lets face it, ironing comes under the heading of repetative and boring to almost everyone but if you’re a tidy sort then its probably doable. I used to work with a guy who thought nothing of sleeping on a park bench when drunk but always managed to get home to iron a shirt! The first day I met him, I commented on his immaculately ironed Thomas Pink shirt (they are known for the amount of fabric and seaming they have!). He had worked in a laundry during his college years and learned how to iron properly.
      I just pay someone to do it – because I like ironed clothes!
      But the book really has a lot more to explain than Why Men Don’t Iron!

  17. POST A COMMENT SAID: “Marina, did you just say “if those statistics are correct, so much the better!!? Suicide is a very complex and devastating issue. I would imagine that it takes a great deal of pain and suffering to decide to end one’s life.”

    Oh Lord! I can’t believe you thought I was referring to mens suicide figures!?!!! Do you really think I would ever think that was better? Unreal. Prehaps I didn’t make myself clear. “Comments” is limiting sometimes. We need a forum format. I was actually refering to men taking orders from women and it was in answer to what you wrote here;

    “According to Hanna Rosin’s article, “The End of Men” https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/308135/2/ Women are starting to dominate middle management and professional careers. According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, women now hold 51.4 percent of managerial and professional jobs—up from 26.1 percent in 1980. They make up 54 percent of all accountants and hold about half of all banking and insurance jobs. About a third of America’s physicians are now women, as are 45 percent of associates in law firms—and both those percentages are rising fast.”

    So in response to that I say. Hurrah! But what about at the very top. 50% ? I doubt it…

    1. Excellent!

      And to extend the hmour – a great line from Sarah Milikan.

      “Emotions are for women… sausages are for men.”

  18. in the past, in this case distant, a girl might say; “I really have to go my whole family has explosive diarrhea and I’m sure to come down with it as I’m in charge of the twins diaper, (nappy) disposal, it’s drippy”….to would be rapeist…”and really catching!”

    (speaking of the sensitive suggestive male) a big hurdle to overcome w/o a blue pill.

  19. post a comment – you mentioned somewhere in there ‘an us versus them’ approach, and women playing victimhood. Women have been victims for thousands of years. We discuss racism with more passion and compassion than we discuss the crimes that have been committed against women and children by men for thousands and thousands of years. Men rape when they want, and they kill when they want, and as many statistics that anyone can throw that state women can be ‘just as bad’, well of course they can. But the sheer numbers do not even form a ratio that compares to the atrocities experienced by being female. It IS a thus versus them because man has been a predator of women. I live my life equally with my husband. Granted, I do perform a fairly traditional role, yet I do more physical work about this place than he does, and he helps with a lot of the cooking and driving the kids about. I am lucky but I still can’t walk out of my door without all of those ancient female alarm bells reminding me how to be at my safest in the public arena. I have a 16 year old daughter, blond and beautiful, I am rightfully frightened for her everytime that she dates a boy, or walks off on her own, that some guys mind won’t snap and he will do what he seems to think he is perfectly entitled to do. Until you live with THAT form of ingrained thought, you really have no idea what it feels like to be a woman and it is THAT which we are trying to change. It is not sexist to be ‘us versus them’ for a woman, it is sensibility and basic survival.

    1. Damnsel you said everything that I wanted to say. Of course we all support equality between the sexes, but if you come across as the slightest bit feminist you are accused of being divisive or worse… I think you are right to bring up racism. We know some men are abused by women, just like some white men occasionally experience discrimination against them from black people. But in this awful rape case here, I think we are right to focus compassion for the suffering of this woman and others like her for the moment at least.

    2. but if you come across as the slightest bit feminist you are accused of being divisive or worse

      aint that the truth!

    3. I agree

      No matter what situations occur in life be it rape, child abuse, violence, racism…It’s sad to watch and see but in situations like this it’s best to be compassionate towards those who are harmed.

    4. “I am lucky but I still can’t walk out of my door without all of those ancient female alarm bells reminding me how to be at my safest in the public arena. I have a 16 year old daughter, blond and beautiful, I am rightfully frightened for her everytime that she dates a boy, or walks off on her own, that some guys mind won’t snap and he will do what he seems to think he is perfectly entitled to do. Until you live with THAT form of ingrained thought, you really have no idea what it feels like to be a woman and it is THAT which we are trying to change.”
      @damsnel, thanks for your reply. If you refer to “we” as feminists in your last line that I’ve quoted, I disagree that ingrained thought is what “we” are trying to change. It’s apparent when observing Western Feminism in 2013, that the main goal is to demonize men and promote the image of women as victims. This does nothing to make the situation better, but rather makes the situation worse by causing rampant fear and negative consequences of labeling males. The average western man is not violent and we know that in our personal lives but when we’re saturated with feminist rhetoric and emotional images & stories (usually pointing to some developing country like India), we get fooled into believing it. This smokes and mirrors tactic obscures the monumental successes made toward women’s equality which Western Feminists have to do in order to be perceived as still relevant. Portraying women as victims fuels Western Feminism and keeps the “Movement” running, despite information like that in the “The End of Men” article that indicates dramatic changes in the equality landscape and that men are now more in need of advocacy and activism than women. It serves logic that if we’re to focus more resources and attention on males with understanding and compassion, we will see less violence.

      With the Delhi tragedy, an innocent man was also a victim and from what I’ve read, he was savagely beaten and then stripped and thrown out of the bus. This point is important but is a blip in the news story. Violence isn’t distributed evenly by sex or age group according to the World Health Organization, males accounted for 77% of all homicides and had rates that were 3 times those of females (1). However, when a male is victimized we don’t care as much. I see the media being complicit in causing rampant fear in women because they gain in readership. The news industry has become reliant on sensational fodder to entice readers to their pages and stories of victimized women has proven to be a money maker.

      (1)Krug, E. G. (2002). World Report on Violence and Health. World Health Organization.

      I’ve learned to be wary of others who try to ingrain their views on me, so I try to dig deeper before making judgments on issues. I’ve also learned detachment and being rational when considering emotional issues. I hope more women will do the same when dealing with western feminism and their politics.

      Carnival, Natalie Merchant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ_Wqtnlv4U

    5. I’m reposting this info from the UsqrP – Sexual Revolution article:

      In regards to sexual assault, radical feminists believe that patriarchy/male power and privilege is the reason for ALL sexual violence towards females. What they will not accept or understand is that many of these men may be mentally disordered. It is interesting to note that criminal psychopaths are a small percentage of the population but represent a high rate in prison. Some factors in diagnosing psychopaths include lying, conning, lack of empathy and antisocial tendencies such as poor self-regulation. This means that they are not able to understand right and wrong according to what society dictates.

      Furthermore, the prevalence of victimization is often misleading because of feminist research methodology used to make it seem higher than it really is (Sommers). For example, in Canada where I live, Statistics Canada compiles statistics on victimization and according to the 2004 Self-Reported Victim Data Survey, there were about 512,000 incidents of sexual assault, representing a rate of 1,977 incidents per 100,000 population aged 15 and older. This is a rate of 1.97%. However what is important to note are the questions that were asked. To assess whether the respondent had been a victim of a sexual attack, the survey asked respondents aged 15 years and older if anyone had forced or attempted to force them into any unwanted sexual activity by threatening them, holding them down or hurting them within the 12 months preceding the survey. To assess the prevalence of unwanted sexual touching, respondents were asked if anyone had ever touched them in a sexual way against their will, including acts of grabbing, kissing or fondling, using the following questions:

      Sexual attack:

      During the past 12 months, has anyone forced you or attempted to force you into any unwanted sexual activity, by threatening you, holding you down or hurting you in some way?

      Unwanted sexual touching: During the past 12 months, has anyone ever touched you against your will in any sexual way? By this I mean anything from unwanted touching or grabbing, to kissing or fondling.

      Sexual assault is defined here as “A term used to refer to all incidents of unwanted sexual activity, including sexual attacks and sexual touching”(Brennan, p7).

      This means that if my boyfriend kissed me when I didn’t feel like it, it would be considered sexual assault even though I may not consider it to be. Hence the large number of incidents reported in the survey which is misleading. Such numbers are routinely disseminated to the public via various means by feminist organizations.

      What is usually not disseminated are details such as the fact that according to the results of the survey, the majority of the sexual offences reported (81%) involved unwanted sexual touching rather than more severe sexual attacks (19%). When asked why they did not tell the police about the sexual assault, a majority of victims (58%) said that they did not report the incident because it was not important enough (Brennon, 6).

      Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics Profile Series “Sexual Assault in Canada 2004 and 2007” by Shannon Brennan and Andrea Taylor-Butts https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/85f0033m2008019-eng.pdf

      Sommers, Christine Hoff Sommers, “Researching the Rape Culture of America” https://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

    6. In my lifetime post a comment – I have had males only interested in me for sex, I woke up to one husband forcing my hand down his pants, that same ex husband also threatened to have my legs broken as he did not like the thought I was divorcing him. The second husband had a porn collection to rival who knows what and used me as some sex/housemaid whatever.

      Judge my words all you like, I come from the normal slice of society, nothing exciting, but even I have experienced some pretty lame behaviors from the men in my life.

      I am not interested in your canadian stats demonising women and claiming them to be playing the victim.

      Again, someone being exactly what they claim their counterpart is being

    7. I meant we, as in women. I am not a feminist, I am a woman, a wife, a mother, and a home-maker. Feminists insult my way of thought and being, bring them into a negative box, judge them as ‘whatever’, as you do here.

      Ingrained fear of being raped is natural when you are a woman and has nothing to do with 2013 westernised feminism. I have felt that natural fear since I was a kid, which was then verified by words from my great grandmother, my grandmother and my mother. I am not a victim, as I have not suffered rape, thank goodness.

    8. and finally, at no point in time have I ever, or would I ever, generalise with a sweeping comment about ALL men. I do not believe it and I support equality. However, it is a majority rule that males rape women and children, end of story and that must change, and not be excused or supported in any shape or form. Rape and abuse of any kind should not be supported or excused and this article is about a terrible crime against women, that is being fought with the legal excuse that she asked for it, is it not

    9. damnsel: Liv, you flatter the western man all too much, there is no racism in sexism, women are abused equally everywhere, we just have scarier laws, which is what these other nations need until conscience and reality catches up

      damnsel, first, the stats I provided are not demonizing women and claiming them to be victims. Second, we tend to only hear about women`s bad experiences in relationships, yet from my research, there are horror stories that men have endured by women. We rarely hear that side of the story for a number of reasons including archaic notions of masculinity that silence men. Thirdly, I have not suggested in any way that rape and abuse of any kind should be supported, but rather I`m looking for solutions for change. An obvious one is to spend more time/energy/resources on males and understanding them but it never ceases to amaze me the emotional reaction by some women and feminists when that suggestion is presented.

    10. but it never ceases to amaze me the emotional reaction by some women and feminists when that suggestion is presented.

      lol careful, your misogyny is showing

    11. and perhaps, you could spend a little bit of academic energy on understanding women, rather than demean their stories, that obviously make you roll your eyes, and classify their reactions as ’emotional’

    12. Winnie Mandela anyone? Whose idea of a necklace was a burning tyre around the neck? Or who ordered the murder of a 14yr old black ANC fighter? Gold Meir was not without her controversy, MArgaret Thatcher conducted a war etc
      Woman are not sacrosanct by virtue of their sex.

  20. One of the reasons for this tragedy to happen might be the way women are seen in their society as been NOTHING, they kill girls at birth and vorship the birth of boys…and beeing raise thinking women r something of no use just a baby lab. and a body used by men to fullfil their sexual needs and men are everything of this earth, of course those rapist thought they r not doing something bad. And those arrranged marriages were people still marry without feeling anything about one another…of course the man has no mercy of the women he marries, how can he? he doesn’t love her or at least care for her, she is just a stranger for him who has the duty to give his kids and stay on her back whenever he needs it, that’s why raping ur wife was legal in India till 1983. These rapes happen because of ages of wrong perceptions of women and her role on this earth, of ages af telling and teaching the kids that girls r nothing and men r everything.

    1. Lets not forget that’d opp,e commit some awful atrocities in the name of love too. Having a partner who loves you guarantees nothing.
      The physical attack by one human being on another reminds us that the human still has a foothold in the animal kingdom. We have lofty ideals about how things should be but mostly can’t match them physically. There is a hinterland between what we are ever dreaming of/striving to become and what we actually are.
      In the realm of man/woman relationships it might be worth nothing that the function of a marriage as a romantically based ideal is relatively recent and started in the western world. In astrology marriage is a 7 th house issue along with business partners, contracts and open enemies. It’s a Saturnine affair.
      So when men and women enter this covenant, regardless of what they want the outcome to be, they are up against themselves via a proxy; the partner.
      Rape seems to have been with us for a long long time. I read an article about 15 years ago in The New Scientist which held the theory it may have evolutionary implications because on a biophysical level it triggered ovulation. I pass no comment on this other than we think our reproductive drives are a pharmaceutically devised choice.
      But what of Kali? Or Tzitzimitl or any of the other destroying goddesses.
      Look again at the nature of these goddesses and their function in a pantheon. Certainly in India there are gods and goddesses which depict and serve to illuminate all aspects of life. Kali is a devouring monster. She destroys before the re growth can appear.
      Personally, I think our world has attempted a sanitisation which we actually cannot keep abreast of. Health and safety in all departments and affrontery when “the other” acts out a deed which at this time it is their karma to perpetrate and someone else’s to receive. Astrology is full of reference to karma. It’s not always “out there.”
      Of course the way to end karma is to rid ourselves of the samskaras, the impressions of action. So instead of “just do it” we get, “just don’t do it” … But how hard is that? How strong is the pull of someone into a moment which leads to more than they bargained for?
      There is a story in the news now of a little girl in Jamaica who suffered sickle cell anaemia (peculiar to Afro Caribbeans) who was shot in a crossfire incident. She was British and there to have some genetic light shed on her condition. She was playing ouside her house, her mum called her in but she pleaded for five more minutes. A cute little thing, her life is now over.
      But what of the previous lives? What of the karma? We can’t know the full picture but at least compassion for all the souls involved in the tumultuous struggle to get clear of karma would ease the passage?
      Kali now affords these female victims their next lives; maybe as champions of the causes of their previous lives, maybe as saints elsewhere. But Kali is a goddess and she exacts her due.

    2. Sorry, typo in first sentence! The gist is that atrocities are committed in the name of love too.
      Any chance we can get an edit function?

    3. That is not love…and atrocities r never commited in the name of love…those who commit them think in their twisted mind that they do it in the name of love…but that is certainly NO LOVE

    4. Uber is correct, crimes are equally committed where there is supposed ‘love’, because that is where a lot of the possession comes into the equation. Marry a man, even if he loves you, and you somehow become his property.

      Another ancient thought that needs to be balanced.

    5. I didn’t say otherwise but the answers r general, i am aware that evil is everywhere in every human creature and tha men rape women and kids everywhere, women abuse men and kids, kids abuse kids and animals and so on…every where in the world….But here is a topic about Indian society and the rape and murder of a girl ..and her friend as colateral victime. It is very specific… and the afirmation of Samar Halarnkar for the Hindustan Times states “Men abuse women in every society, but few males do it with as much impunity, violence and regularity as the Indian male.”, seems to me that sais it all about it.

  21. Exactly. But look at the reality. Humans think love is a big fat bridal gown and a dream. Then go look at the divorce stats.
    What is averagely thought of as love is a play of the senses and incurs possession…. Hence vows etc.
    If love means letting someone be themselves, how is there so much affrontery around so called infidelity? How come the vows of love do not include accepting the others right to choices, expressions etc? Perhaps it’s in there as the word honour… But it”s misinterpreted in the quest for humanly constructed perfection.
    Perhaps the creator has other plans?

  22. When u live in a society which thinks, and puts it in the mind of those who r born, that women when r not worthy, r just things u can get rid of when u don’t need them anymore, of course u rape and kill then with clean counsience. Cause society alows u to do it. At least in the weasten societies there r atempts to change this thinking, which not long ago was a common thing, but not much as it is in hindu or arabic society….where women r still killed at birth or murdered with stones cause of some idiotic reasons.
    Probably love doesn’t guaratee anything, but lack of love surely creates mosters.
    I don’t know if the creator has other plans, and if he has we didn’t understand them, we created our own rules which sais the one with more physical power can kill and rape the weaker one, the one who cannot defend and should be protected by the first one.

    1. I’m not familiar with that kind of society. I was born in England to an Indian mother and and English father.
      I don’t see things the way you do. I don’t relate much to society any more as I see a society as just made up of individuals all of whom are at differing stages in their evolution.
      I did mention the largely outmoded practice of sutee in a previous post but it is far from the norm in India or in Hindu religion. India comprises many religions of course.
      The rules you talk of apply to a low mental state. Remember, men who rape and kill women kill men too. The rapist does not represent all men either. Neither does the woman who manipulates a man into fatherhood for the sake of her own reproductive system represent all women. Both, to me, still have a big foothold in the animal kingdom. Having spent a considerable time in the bush watching herds of animals and animal behaviour it becomes very obvious.
      Have you considered what I mentioned earlier about the soul evolution? Karma etc and the responsibility of the individual?
      I caught the wave of feminism back in the 70s and 80s but looking back now I can’t recall it ever being in the interests of the development of the soul. Not described as much anyway. And now it seems to be only an entitlement to economic parity- which is fine, and choice of when to have kids which is fine but then the not do good choice to have to leave them to be brought up by strangers while Mum’s objective is money. it may be a generalisation but its there.
      I don’t see women enobling themselves much of spirit. When was the last time you picked up a womens magazine which had not hijacked yoga as a way to get a trim waist? When it shold be a precursor to meditation. Why are so many women oriented articles about food, weightloss, better sex and how to dress like a freak?
      So the men are just as misguided. And so it goes on. As I said before, the animalistic traits of the human remain until the mid can persuade it otherwise and the mind needs elevating.
      India is a huge place with many strata within its religions and people. I am not very familiar with Arabic culture but I am familiar with Sufi which predates Islam and is of the region historically.
      The Kumbh Mela takes place from the 27th Jan to the 25th Feb this year https://www.kumbhmela.co.in/MahaKumbhMela2013.html – this festival of purification. The biggest gathering on earth – it 2001 it attracted 40 million Hindu devotees. In 2007 it was 70 million and this time it is estimated 100 million. The position of the Mela depends on the planetary positions.
      It is perhaps to the credit of the Hindu faith that this many people desire purification and the events are relatively crime free. This is a quote from the Huff. post –
      “The Indian people don’t change their attitude to spirituality overnight, we’re not like the West,” Ram Puri said, laughing. “That’s why in India the spirit is strong.”
      So ask yourself why the West has focused on the (albeit horrible) rape and murder of one woman in India now? Is this to deflect from its own lack of spirituality? That we have invented a sort of freedom for women which is not a freedom at all? That we have lost compassion when it is needed most?
      I don’t doubt that there is a long way to go for INdian women to feel totally safe in public. This depends on how the men are educated. But frankly, if a low grade person with little control over his genitals gets drunk he hasn’t got much choice over his self control. Then the animal in the base chakra wakes up. Kali arrives with her garland of skulls. The wheel turns.
      Lack of love can be seen as responsible for all ills – but as I said earlier – we have a warped idea of what love is. It has to start with absolute self respect inthe individual. If a man is not taught this, he suffers too and the cycle goes on.

    2. I’m adding this – from a campaign site for a sex offenders registry in South Africa –
      With sex offences on the rise in South Africa, and with South Africa having the highest rape statistics of 117 cases per 100 000 people in 2007, the latest stats report that 20 000 children get raped every year.
      The tip of an ice berg. This stat only refers to children not women.

      Re Liv’s post above, what about the HIndu father of the murdered girl who sacrificed so much to get her educated? He had sold everything for her education. Where as astrologers do we apply the laws of karma in such a situation? There are several strata to consider. The individual and collective are intertwined. There was a man attacked and left for dead too.
      Kali loves nothing more than a killing frenzy to raze the ground for new growth.
      I think we do understand the creator’s plans – and interestingly you refer to it as a HE! Lets regard it perhaps for once as the concept of Allah – since you mention Arabic society. It is ot a personified god but really an all pervasive creating force which we can choose to be at the mercy of or take some responsibility. The latter is probably why we are here, with respect to the soul journey… Kali is one goddess along the way.

    3. I refer to it as he because the language sistem we created or whom ever created it leaves me no choice. I can refer at it with HE, SHE, IT or i can choose to not make any reference, but then what r we talking about. Or i can find a pompous name to it…it doesn’t matter as long as i can make myself understood.
      WE don’t know anything unfortunatelly or fortunatelly, i cannot decide, we just make asumptions of all kind to ease or counsience and our life here on earth.
      From a human point i am really sorry for the hurt people have to experience in their lives, maybe there is purpose which i cannot, don’t want to understand when it comes to brutal murderes, rapes and abuses of all kinds. Beliving that everything has a purpose even if we don’t understand it probably gives up the strenght to go on and live among all these atrocities.

    4. WHy do you think you’re forced to use the term HE?
      btw, I had read the quote from the Hindustan Times but he’s wrong. AFrica excels at cruelty to women. But its very non p.c to broadcast that.

    5. So u agree with me…it’s the law of who has stronger muscles…and a matter of mentality which cannot be change cause it runs in their blood for ages.
      It’s not just one girl who got rapped, it’s a problem in their country as it is in many countries: “While sexual violence is believed to be a major problem across India, the issue has seldom been raised in a country where women are still often regarded as second-class citizens. Victims are often blamed for sexual attacks — by their families or authorities — and the shame of rape keeps many women from reporting such attacks at all.”

    6. No, I dont agree with you in that way – I don’t see us as separate from them. Pardon me if I got this wrong but the primary caregivers of boys are their mothers. It may seem old fashioned and I am NOT levying blame but the subtle agendas of any caregiver to an infant become imprinted. Many men with a sense of entitlement grow up with that sense fostered by their mothers. Likewise the little princess who is Daddy’s girl.
      I’ll stick my neck out too and say that some women invite undue attention. But that’s another issue.
      As I said before, division into male against female doesn’t really serve, neither does politicising the issue. How many years of feminism and now this? As you rightly point out India and other places are full of sex crime.
      So my point is – re Kali – get to the base of this. What is it really about?
      HAve you considered my points about the animal in the human? WHat is the actual nature of the beast? WHat is the full spectrum of its possibility and behaviour?
      Its wortht noting that in the UK last year there was a case where a female nursery nurse who abused her infant charges – https://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/18/tracy-dawber-paedophile-colin-blanchard
      and this story from South Africa – where the accused woman walked free but nine girls testified against her – https://www.today.com/id/39616524/site/todayshow/ns/today-entertainment/t/woman-acquitted-oprah-school-scandal/#.UPV3m6Xabgo
      – both put the boot on the other foot.
      So yes, you’re right that perhaps the more muscle wins out but its not always male.
      SInce rape is not going away – we maybe need to analyse it from a different point of view. I don’t think polarising them and us helps at all.
      I htink both sexes are in bondage until as individuals they take the choice not to be and that will be along time coming.

    7. I don’t know what it helps, surely our analyses won’t help that poor girl and her friend and won’t make a difference.
      We have some opinions which we don’t know if they r right but in end who care…life goes on

    8. By analysis I mean the way all human behaviour is analysed. The actual nature of the beast is rarely discussed. The evolution of the soul doesn’t get a look in since our understanding is secular.

  23. Hi all!

    Here, in 14 years, there have been almost 15 th. women assesinated after rape and authorities just won´t know who -seems that many…- do these atrocities. Las Muertas de Juárez.

    While partying with my bros. last month, I sooo much craved for recognition with them. Horrible. And one of them is specialized on questioning and minimizing every Word I say. So subtle!

    And I get hot and try to defend my point and get somehow more and more entangled. At the end, I feel void and hurt. And he seems strong and *with the reason on his side, doing only justice* (so to say).

    I don´t think anyone may feel *happy* acting like this. And Tango takes two…

    I´m trying to end this victim circle. And try to feel deep my emotions, so I might not entangle with my bro. anymore.

    And the crimes perpetrated in a desert of my country, remain unsolved (they just don´t seem to care! And when they pay some attn. -thanks to feminists- they just don t get anywhere). And that is very subtle too… very painful.

    They seem this obscure enemies. Not the ones QOW mention. Those on the 7th house. No. This ravenous, mysterious, unknown, clever, calculating enemies on the 12th house.

    I remember when my brother -the one keeping our inhertances, the one who is subtle and acts like a hero, while being mean- told me how many hours did he take to knitt his vengeance for my father and for my grand mother, to defend himself of their exigences and their way of feeling so rightful. For him, it was long hours thinking how to harm them in a very subtile way. He does not think or feel we are part of his life. He seems to be -seems- a very protective person to his children and friends. And he walks upon us when ever he has the chance.

    Now, I just want to invite him and try to investigate my own shadow over him (with Pablo, I was critical; an obscure enemy for him. With Marco, aswell. And with my brother also. I ´m trying to get rid of those expressions of my being with my son… and on saturday, I asked him how do we both embroid and get entangled when he closes up to my words and I end up feeling frustrated, not listened to and with feelings of dispair…).

    I just don´t get why we get there (and I sure got there with his dad… I felt they just would not listen to me, to my words, to what I had to say. Get crazy about it and start insisting like mad…).

    With my brother, if I don´t get in his way and he does not get in mine, all my events with him are thru. We don´t have to deal with money, or with anything, any more. I hope for the rest of the lives!!!

    Kind regards to all!

    Feel more tan sad for this human condition 🙁


    1. families…we live in deep feelings towards them and know them too well, the attachment is deep. The inner conflict of the Indian male, reflected in your brother… protector or agressor,(destroyer)…Your brother may seem a hyprocrite in his desire to gain dominance over the females of his family while outwardly protecting them against the perils of a male dominated society. What may be happening is the growing pains of the eventual good man. I’d remain watchful.

    2. Ah Rocio, I learned along time ago, don’t try and get recognition with or by inferiors. You are casting pearls before swine. I like what Lucy has said about the growing pains of a potentially good man. That is great wisdom.
      Oddly – still no comments from anyone about karma! Kali might be, as a goddess of vengeance and destruction, quite busy as a midwife of karma!

    3. I’m a bit uncomfortable with the concept of karma as applied to these sorts of events and have been pondering all these comments most of the day. Such a huge subject.
      Without proper understanding would it not be possible to argue that this poor girl was ‘asking for it’ at the karmic level, that she had it coming to her, that she, or anyone who suffers horribly at the hands of a mediaeval-minded psychopath, is performing the work of karma rather than just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
      Isn’t that rather dangerous? – without proper understanding it might justify violent acts by giving them meaning.
      Does it not, like any myth, seek to explain the inexplicably horrible in an attempt to find some sort of order or rationale in the universe? Might it not give rise to fatalism?
      Look at Genesis, original sin, a twisted verion of karma and the soul’s journey ‘We’re in this mess because someone (oh, yes, a GIRL) did something wrong – therefore all girls are responsible for the mess we’re in and should be punished, treated as subhuman, the cause of all evil etc etc.
      I’d like to believe in karma, that there is some sense to the horror, the ‘why does God let bad things happen to good people?’ question, but I have a suspicion of narratives. The idea of a meaningless and truly random existence really is terrifying until you shed the myth making and get used to it, just as we should shed the unnecessary constructs around male/femaleness that are holding us back from mutual understanding. That’s not to say I don’t believe in the soul’s journey,I’m just mystified.
      I’m also suspicious of the ‘it’s just biology, look at animals’ arguments. I’ve heard them used too often as a lazy excuse for pathetic behaviour and my answer is usually ‘Well ditch your car and go and live in a tree if you’re going to use that excuse, you can’t have it both ways’ Yes we undeniably get overwhelmed by our lizard brains at times, some more than others, but we alone put it into a cultural/moral context to justify uncivilised behaviour, which is when it gets really scary.
      And again, where is Lilith(conjunct Jupiter) in all this? Is she an agent of karma? Is she forcing the issue around the abuse of women?
      I was about to make some comment about laws of physics and electricity being beyond human manipulation but have just remembered roundly cursing the man who shut down my art college, and he really was killed by lightning, so, er…

    4. Hi RAchel, with due respect karma never involves the “she was asking for it” notion. To understand karma we would have to have a view extending over millions of lives because that’s how it is works and we have to accept that a soul incarnate in a male, strong body who was say, Vlad the Impaler can be reincarnate living as a harmless little girl somewhere in another life who may get caught up in a massacre.
      I don’t say that anyone who perpetrates a vile act at any time should go unpunished or unrestricted, because in this plane we have rules and they are part of the karma.
      If you take the view that death releases the soul into an improved state before the next incarnation (an aspect of the method of Kali) then death is not a punishment, its just a close on that stage of the work.
      I’ve been studying the work of Sanctus Germanicus lately and much to dowith karma – of the individual right through to the whole planet and the system the planet is in etc
      and its like taking a lens and pulling it to the maximum wide angle to get a picture. Then every detail is just a pixel on a vast image which is… just an image with an edge which we cannot understand beyond.
      At the other end of the scale, my husband and I were watching a gruesome tv programme about morbidly obese people and how their bodies are affected when they lose weight. One man was interviewed just showing his face, which was normal. But then the camera panned down to the rest of him. He had weighed about 30st (420lbs) and now all the fat had gone his over stretched skin hung in giant folds off his body. His genitalia was about a foot away from where it should have been, he had wings of skin 9 inches deep below his arms. He was dragging around a separate version his physical self. Seeing this was a brilliant illustration of how we are a being in a physical trap, an intelligence inside a vehicle.
      Re the biology -its not “just biology” as a soul in a human form we have to make choices. But some souls are not long out of the animal level. Not all souls are at the same point of evolution. And that is where compassion comes in. And that too is a hard choice to make in the face of revulsion which is why we have had teachers such as Jesus. “forgive them father for they know not what they do.” etc I don’t think forgiveness excludes a due being paid however. The karma of the Delhi rapists doesn’t end here, the Indian state will exact its due. I notice some of them are pleading not guilty. And so it goes on.
      Re Lilith – hmm… if you take the view the victim of the crime is free now, having stepped through the portal of death, she’s going to have a field day with what remains.
      Perhaps she’s forcing the hand of Jupiter to show us a greater understanding – but lets remember Jupiter has some violent storms raging on it. Education can come through anarchy!
      re the man who shut down your art college – remind me not to cross you!

  24. I’m not sure what the quote/block quote thing is about??
    I didn’t think Kali was a censoring kind of goddess! ANyway, my apology if I offended anyone, but you know the internet, all the words and none of the eyebrows!

  25. Liv, you flatter the western man all too much, there is no racism in sexism, women are abused equally everywhere, we just have scarier laws, which is what these other nations need until conscience and reality catches up

    1. I don’t flatter anybody, but as a woman of any age and any looks in a country like India and u will see how men r trying to touch u, take pics of u when u r not paying attention, they r agrressing u with they eyes, talk and touching and the same is in all these countries where women r considered second class citizens. Western men r not doing it, i don’t feel agreesed walking on street or talking to a man in a western country, of course we have our phicopaths, our agreesive teenagers and so on….but there is like u cannot breath…and it is because of the way they were taught about how much values the life a woman…nothing…and it it should behave in some limits they can change however they like. It’s not that i am putting everybody in same pot, but most of them r like that. As long as they they won’t make a change or start it at least things will be worse and worse.

    2. That’s ok but my point was that in the west, the law has altered the external behavior on many that would choose to behave in that way. No doubt more would if they could get away with it, which it seems in India and other places, they can, so they do.

  26. Hi all!

    So interesting this fórum!

    I have the deep feeling that we just do not how to manage primaral energies, and there IS this karma thing, which is not related to guilt or blame, or all those constructions, which are only social and put there in order to keep interests in certain times, through History.

    We just do not what to do with this energies… and do it calmly, wisefuly… lovingly. Then, we act like the crazy species we so much act out.

    We do have to lear a lot! But then, religions just get on the way all the time! That´s why I just don´t get why-why-why… women would fight for being or not being in a religión! We don´t want them, and I´m not sure people need them. Again, for me it is a construction. And, like the rest of institutions, will be “desmodernized” -deconstructed- because it not longer serves to what ever the evolution is leading us to.

    I don´t really feel like hurting anyone with deep roots on religions and I do know there are profoundly spiritual people within churches (and that they might become even saints for what they have to endure if they really want that painful path…).

    Just as the rest of the institutions, they will have to clear out, in the middle of all this cleansing.

    And willing so much to receive Marina´s lectures -DM and NCh- which I´m sure will widen my own points of view.

    I feel so much clear now! I feel the changes and they seem sooo right, so perfect. And feel thankful with SP. I´ve changed and will go on!

    Kind regardes to every one! Have enjoyed all your essays!


    1. yes, Rocio…we can’t be fooled by resurgence, resurgence is the last flame of a fading fire. AND religion constructs itself same as government with large public works projects, cathedrals, coliseums, bridges, care for the poor while enslaving us; taxes tithing.
      religion is fading but belief in god is there for me,summers in a flower garden, if god is in heaven, beauty is on earth the connection is big.
      If understand you meaning correctly…the need for comfort in religion is great, women appear saintly in suffering even as the construct crumbles.

    2. I agree, Rocio, and thank you. Our connectedness to all things, to all matter, is what guides me these days. If someone hurts another person, they hurt us all.

    3. Yes! This feeling of deep connection! That IS our thing… the rest is institutional. Ok! I agree! There were no available ways on other times, and there was a need to control the masses. But this need will be increasingly fading, as the NEra takes its position, while we regain our primaral contact to Nature, to the Godess and to know ourselves, know our groups and act calmly.

      I always recall the words that are attributed to Mother Theresa of Calcuta. To support what you like. And I better not fight what I don´t like (I only make it bigger giving it so much importance… :/ !)

      Kind regards and you all have a wonderful day (well… as much as posible).


    4. I’m glad you mentioned Mother Theresa. I went to see Les Miserables movie last night and thought of her against a backdrop of anarchy.

  27. Another thought on the Delhi rape.
    Alice Bailey wrote about the “glamours” of suffering and I wonder if Neptune and Chron might be implicated in the fact the presssiezedon this story because it showed love’syoung dream in the couple plus she was a beacon of newly growing paradigms for young Indian women by western standards.
    Thereis no glamour for the press in this story although it made news but no much changed as a result. It is one of many similar and far worse stories. Don’t worry, the actual event is NOT in this clip but an outline of the story is and the message is brought to us by a young black male, so good for him.
    You can google the words rape and South Africa and you can find a host of stories and stats.
    So while the press picked out the story of the young girl in Delhi, quite rightly, spare a thought for these less glamourous girls and women. I don’t see western feminists carrying the gauntlet for them. Not visibly.

    1. Good point, I’m aware of the South African rapes – especially where superstition about AIDS is concerned, and also, as Rocio has pointed out, in South America, dreadful, dreadful violence. While I guess the underlying causes – ignorance,power tripping,suppression of women – might be similar in parts of the world where violent and fatal sexual assault is commonplace, I suspect the cultural attitudes around it might differ? Is there, for instance, proscription of unmarried women being seen in male company in SA?
      Interesting about the glamour thing, Neptune is bound to introduce an element of illusion

    2. I agree that there’s no glamour for the press in the Delhi tragedy but sadly such stories are known to improve circulation. Violence is indeed a terrible reality and especially in areas of the world like India and South Africa and there’s no doubt that women need to be emancipated in such places. I often wonder about the effects of war on the men in African countries such as post traumatic stress syndrome and other mental health issues. As the adage goes, victims create victims.

      I hope that the media coverage about India will lead to positive changes which is much needed, but will it be constructive changes to EXTREMELY complex problems or knee jerk reactions to western pressure? With my knowledge of the institutionalized corruption and chaos in India, I feel a little concerned about the outcome.

      As I recall, the Nov lunar (emotional) eclipse in Gemini (communications/media) in the stormy Hyades cluster was conjunct Black Moon Lilith, literally on the Bulls left eye which Marina found to be rather treacherous. It was also the focal point of a yod and the reaction point was on the Sun. Marina writes about Sun opposite Lilith: Then we have Sun opposite Lilith, “there can be an inner battle which is then projected onto “Boogie men” in the outside world. Identifying with the Sun can therefore result in being a shiny example of goodness as opposed to identifying with Lilith where you become an utter social outcast.
      Again there is danger of living out an internal split externally, represented by the spouse vs. forbidden-fruit scenario. I think it is very important during this eclipse phase to come to grips with our own shadow because this Yod, with all its duets, is so ripe for projecting and dividing people into angels or demons. We also do not need an excuse for a holy war either.”

  28. There’s no proscription at all in SA for unmarried women with men. The highest rate for teenage pregnancy in the world is sub Saharan Africa – but they do have a very different culture. However, one figure from a youth targeted HIV programme says one in three girls in Sought Africa has had a baby by 20. Although in one school in Soweto showed a shocking 71% of pupils to be pregnant, the spokesman explained,
    “Somehow there are schools where 60 to 70 percent of pupils were pregnant. There is no doubt that this is associated with things like gang activity, coercion and substance abuse,” Harrison said, adding that according to a 2006 survey, 30 percent of girls in South Africa said “their first sexual experience was forced or under threat of force”.
    Furthermore, girls in some areas find it hard to get contraceptives as the attitudes of the nurses who dish them out does not allow it – i/e they say they shouldn’t be having sex… but I wonder what they do with the boys?
    Anyway, there is a big issue with male vanity (different from hatred of women) – whereby raping a girl is seen as an initiation and fathering a child, especially a boy, makes you a man.

    The level of poverty incurred results in stories like the one here –


    Where women deliberately damage their unborn foetus to get benefits.
    I have posted it elsewhere on DS, a picture of the baby drop where unwanted newborns are shoved through a hatch and a charity picks them up on the other side.

    I think we see Kali at her darkest in Africa – in both sexes but its too non PC to make a noise about it. Its easier to blame all problems on apartheid but that serves no one now.

    Kali is a very difficult archetype to live with and it infuriates me when I see pictures of the sanitised pin up version. She’s uncompromising indeed.
    I also had a thought, Rachel, about the Lilith Jupiter thing – there’s a story in the UK press today about another child grooming/sex abuse ring i the Oxford area. All the men as Islamic (as most of them seem to have been in the other big case last year) and I wonder if Lilith is going to expose people hiding behind their religion or bending the rules of it? I found more stuff from a guy who was training to be a Rabbi about Rabbis abusing kids… I guess the planet is due a heft clear out of attitudes at least.
    Why can’t we just be nice to eachother?.. oh.. I remember.. Karma and the great play of Maya/Lila etc etc

  29. As Marina says, Venus was trine Neptune so there’s the glamour and I guess Mercury/Antares on the reaction point focussed the Lilith energy into the media (and this discussion). I just pulled up the event chart on Astrodienst, which gives an earlier moon position than the one Marina posted above – Waldemath Dark Moon Lilith is exactly conjunct Pluto/Facies in that yod. Yuk. Would you equate that with Kali?
    Pondering the Lilith/Jupiter thing, don’t you find in divination and oracles that there are usually at least two ways of interpreting an answer depending on our subjective response? Is Jupiter here, as you say, representing religious institution or vile behaviour justifying itself on grounds of religion, and Lilith a driving force for justice exposing this? Or is Jupiter simply magnifying the Lilith/Pluto energy, both mean and Waldemath? Or is Jupiter in fact acting as a benefic in a horrible situation,where govenment and institutions can initiate change? Let’s not forget the CT shooting and the move to change gun law in its wake.
    I’m massively ignorant about Hindu philosophy, therefore had a great time looking up what you meant by Maya/Lila,lovely concept!

    1. Hi Rachel, what is the event chart you speak of? I got the time from WIKI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape_case

      Ouch Dark Moon with Pluto really does bring out all the demons, I’m not sure I would equate it with Kali. I don’t know enough about Kali either really. Just a reminder about Waldemaths moon “Its dark absorbing nature lends it to attracting the negative projections of human emotions. If we shed light on these outside of our skin it could be a way of cleansing wounds suffered by all humanity. These wounds are said to encircle the earth’s vibrational energy field like a black smog.”

      I think the discussions here have been really interesting and brought out a few of our own demons as we write. How feminism is either positively or negatively viewed for example. But its true with forum discussions we have the problem of misunderstandings and irony being lost, but there is so much food for thought here.

      I’m too jet lagged to think very hard for now, but I am greatly enjoying the debate!

    2. Hi welcome back to the snow! I’m sorry, I got that chart wrong, typo. Dark moon was conjunct Pluto on the 12th!

    3. You’re back! Just in time for the snow! I’m trying to leave today. HAve one eye on the news and flight updates. I’m cureently in Narnia.

      Id say dark moon with PLuto is totally Kali. What we are missing of course is the birth data of the woman and the rapists, ideally.

      A helicopter went into a crane in london 2 days ago. The crane driver slep past his alarm and was late for work. A fateful escape. Fate. PLuto. etc Bog gods of change at work.

    4. Oh how mad, we are swapping hemispheres then!
      Yes actually I think I will have to agree that Pluto+Dark Moon = Kali. I suppose I was seeing Dark Moon/Pluto as ultra nasty/toxic, when like Algol it doesn’t have to be. It’s just this rape is so horrific that it colours the way you see certain aspects. Lilith/Jupiter can be similar as we have seen, in my research I have found Lilith/Jupiter can be even more abusive then something more obvious like Lilith/Pluto. Sarah Aldrete has Lilith quincunx Jupiter in a Yod.
      I was thinking Kali was more like a controversial Eris character and not so negative as the Dark Moon (Waldemath) can be, but like I say, I’ve not read up too much about her, I just assumed she was the Hindu version of Lilith.

    5. If you ever get time, Rachel, get hold of a book called Chasm of Fire (it used to be Daughter of Fire?) – its a diary of a woman who lived with a Sufi Master in INdia in the late 50s. Its a wonderful book. I’d take this on a desert island and never stop reading it. I think its sad that some of the great stories of female endeavour have become overlooked by political stuff.

    6. Thanks UQ, have a good journey, I just bottled out of taking the train to London!

  30. So! What I discovered within is: when they are Alpha, then I respect them (as I did with my father, who was *strong* (in the outside… very anguish and even a sadist in the inside…). And when they are soft, I expect them to be like him…

    That is why I could not deal with Pablo (not that he was that good to communicate).

    Now, with my son, I am trying very much NOT to reap the conversation and try really to listen to what he is saying (Pablo and me, kept our own records on, and hardly would listen to each other).

    The mean thing about the ones I don´t fear (and sure dis-respect at the end…) is that I don´t trust them and end up feeling that they need my help (codependency) and -thus- they are stupid!

    OMG! I better change! Otherwise, I will harm my youngster with this unconscious patterns…



  31. https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/media-united-in-outrage-over-rape-1.1467046#.URX14Ogkjgo

    I just thought i’d add this – while the men who killed the girl in Delhi are pleading not guilty and their legal advisors are trying to claim the conviction is unsafe. This is a comparable case of gang rape from Johannesburg. It never made the international news and I suspect because in some ways, it just wasn’t “glamourous” enough. It also tells us a lot about what we expect and accept in different cultures.
    If you open the link, look at the stats – and look again. 150 rapes an hour. In particular, look at the comments by Andrew Harding.
    There is a subtle agenda here – we are outraged by the Indian rape because, well its India, land of yoga and Vedic culture. The other is Africa.
    Have we just accepted a level of savagery which we daren’t address because Africa is a special case? A problem child?
    Astrologically and mythically Kali may be evolving in India but whatever her name is in Africa it dare not be spoken.

    1. I know! I read about both cases.

      Overhere, there seems to be a tendence also to have a revenge. Now, men are violating spanish women (the wound of conquer is still there, in spite of the almost 500 years elapsed).

      So many dark emotions on the bottom.

      I, myself, also! I have these nasty emotions. People I *hate* the most, are those glorifying themselves being so *good* and making all aothers feel like imbecils. On the top, those so many have to be thankful… They have been helped (ironic: they harm, they glorify of being good and, at the end, they make lots of paralyzed victims! No wonder the kind of hatred they seed).


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