Sun Conjunct/Quincunx Lilith ~ Sorcery

Sun conjunct or quincunx Lilith plays out as the ego feeling exiled from the dominant cultural system. Sometimes this is as a result of actual abuse from authority figures. The closer Lilith is to the Sun the more it may feel eclipsed. Therefore the taboo is cast over these subjects identity, to the extent that they can become demonised. These sensitive folk may fall for the forbidden fruit of drugs to numb the pain of feeling like an outcast.

Despite Sun conjunct Lilith’s counter-cultural behaviour, Black Moon subjects need more than most to feel like they belong and feel part of a family. The way they can do this successfully is to bond with nature and animals. If other planets confirm this, their sexuality will be instinctive and untamed, and they feel very comfortable in their own skin.

The subject may in their defence totally reject any solar collaboration for fear of being totally outshone. Females could refuse to marry, or have same-sex relationships. Most subjects, whatever their sex, will prefer to work for themselves.

The fiery creativity of the Sun fused with the piercing intuition of the black moon makes these subjects sexually magnetic and intense. They are closely bound to the spirit world, and can perform powerful magic for good and for ill. If exiled, these folk will create their own brand of sexuality or moral code, so in effect Sun conjunct Lilith crowns itself.

Sun quincunx Lilith creates unique and unusual ways to exorcise your demons. The quincunx shows the successful alchemical blending of seemingly incongruous elements. These self -divined people somehow get away with being respected and idolised combined with also being the taboo, exiled or demonic. Sometimes they start their life being the darling of society, repressing their eccentricity and then shockingly flip over to their more authentic selves which then exiles them.

Sun/Lilith ~ (In)* Conjunct Aspects

Sun Conjunct Lilith

Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe (10’) was certainly gifted and prolific as an epic poet, writer and critic. He also studied law and became a German statesman. He was chief advisor to the Grand Duke and then was knighted himself. Goethe was also fascinated by natural science. He published works on morphology and colour theory. Goethe had the largest mineral collection in Europe having 17,800 rock samples in total.

True to Goethe’s Lilithian Sun, some of his literature was very erotic for the time he lived in. He was a visionary and influenced European thought greatly “a figure in two worlds: on the one hand, devoted to the sense of taste, order, and finely crafted detail, which is the hallmark of the artistic sense of the Age of Reason and the neo-classical period of architecture; on the other, seeking a personal, intuitive, and personalized form of expression and society, firmly supporting the idea of self-regulating and organic systems.” ~ Wiki

John Dee (06’) was most famous for being court astrologer and advisor to Elizabeth I. He was a gifted mathematician, astronomer and occultist dedicating his life to bridging the worlds of science and magic. Even though Dee was a devout Christian, he was profoundly influenced by Hermetic law, Plato and Pythagoras, believing that numbers were the root of all wisdom and all God’s creations were based on geometry and numbering. John Dee was obsessed with connecting to the spirit world because he believed it contained higher wisdom. He was unsuccessful until he collaborated with Edward Kelley a spirit medium.

Kelley’s Moon at 1º Aquarius was trine Dee’s Sun/Lilith conjunction at 29º Virgo. (And exact conjunct Dee’s Moon) Dee spoke to the angels through Kelley. Due in part to Kelley’s showmanship and fame as an alchemist, the partnership became very successful. Lilith’s tendency for triangular relationships came into effect when Kelley claimed angel Uriel had demanded that they both share Dee’s second wife Jane Fromond (who was 28 years younger that Dee.) John begrudgingly complied for a while but then broke with Kelley eventually. After Elizabeth I’s death, Dee found no support and died in poverty. “Dee is now viewed as a serious scholar and appreciated as one of the most learned men of his day. His personal library at Mortlake was the largest in the country, and was considered one of the finest in Europe.” ~ Wiki

Eve Sedgwick (38’) felt the ugly duckling within her good-looking family so she escaped into the intellectual world and made her name in “Queer studies”. She then became a self-professed “gay studies guru, who happens to be a heterosexual woman married to her fella”.  Also Britney Spears, Benny Anderson (Abba), Belle Boyd, Henry Winkler (The Fonz) and Uri Gellar.

Larry Csonka (02’) Former American football player and fullback who won the superbowl with the Miami dolphins in 1973 and 1974. He was successful despite being so large. He weighed 220 pounds (15 stone.) aged 16. “By the 1970s he was one of the most feared runners in professional football. Standing 6 ft 3 in …. he was one of the biggest running backs of his day and pounded through the middle of the field with relative ease, often dragging tacklers 5 -10 yards. He was described as a bulldozer or battering ram.” ~ WIKI.  Since his retirement he has become a motivational speaker. Also Gary Numan (25’), James Dean (63’), Ina May Gaskin (79’) Cheiro, Erin Brockovich, Terence McKenna, M.C Escher, Lena Zavaroni, Debbie Reynolds, Wikileaks chart, Cannibals chart, Jennifer Lopez, Victoria & Albert Davison, Charles & Camila Davison.

Sun Quincunx Lilith

Sir Isaac Newton (31′) As well as being the astronomer who showed us how the cosmos was structured. He was also an occultist, secretly carrying out experiments in alchemy. He combined science with spirituality to understand the Universe, and predicted the end of the world in 2060! The Kray Twins (05′), brutal gangsters who ran organised crime in Londons East end, such was their charisma they actually became celebrities until they were jailed in 1969. Spike Milligan (18′) the wildly eccentric British comedian notoriously incredibly difficult to work with. Diagnosed  bi-polar. Cat Stevens (56′) musician had both Liliths quincunx the Sun, he became enlightened after nearly drowning. Later he married a Muslim, changed his name to “Islam” and gave up music in favour of his new religion. In 2004 he was denied entry to the US because he was on the countries “Watch List”.

Sun Lilith Aspects

Sun conjunct/quincunx Lilith • Sun sextile/trine Lilith
Sun square Lilith Sun opposite Lilith

* The Inconjunct is another word for the quincunx. In traditional astrology, nether the conjunction or the quincunx are technically ‘aspects’ because the planets are too close in distance to ‘see’ the other. The conjunction functions as a blind spot, while the quincunx an adjustment. They share the ‘blindness’,so that is why I have grouped them together. Aspectare is Latin for ‘To observe’, or look at attentively.
Picture ref: John Dee performing an experiment before Queen Elizabeth I. Henry Gillard Glindoni. (1852 -1913)

55 thoughts on “Sun Conjunct/Quincunx Lilith ~ Sorcery

  1. I have Sun conjunct mean BML in the 8th…I guess I’d say that I have a thoroughly unbending will- I simply won’t do anything that I don’t want to do. Also, I’ve never felt the need to identify myself as a feminist because with BML conjunct Sun, and many placements in Aries (Sun, Mercury, Venus, BML, Chiron, Pallas, Diana, Amor, etc…) it’s such an intrinsic part of my personality that there is no separation- there is no outer construct or idea to identify with.

  2. My BML and Sun and Pallas are conjunct in the 1st house. Well, i can confirm all of the above: abusive father, fighting against the dominant male, feminist and queer work that does not fit even those groups philosophies, feeling at home in nakedness, in nature, experience of mental health instituitions (BML is just at 1 degrees in Pisces, Sun and Pallas are at the end in my Aqua – only a few days earlier birth date with Drew B.), natural mind altering drugs etc.

    Which all sounds harsh, wild and crazy at first look but the pisces lilith makes it all a lot more empathetic and soft and subtle in the last two decades. It can even give comfort to others like a witch or a healer used to provide. May look intimidating for some but giving care, protection, belonging, connection with the nature and our spiritual sources for those in need.

    Now the Neptune+Lilith+Chiron transiting my natal Sun+Pallas+Lilith exactly and it is not only creating a new spiritual awakening as you studied recently it is also waking up the core female fighting strenght in me that is traditionally supressed and frowned upon by our societies, and tamed by my venus in pisces in the next house. I owe my lilith so much of myself that I feel like should do a special mini ceremony for this lovely transit nowadays:)

  3. Oops, a little correction: Venus is also in the 1st but must have shoved it away in my head with so much fiery fighter goddesses taking more of a centre stage and a good old neptunian fogginess;)

  4. @bella
    Wow! How wonderful you have that triple conjunction on a Stellium like that. I can assure you it will be pretty enlightening and life changing if it was anything like the Jupiter/Chiron/Neptune on my Lilith/Mars.Triple Guru conjunction. But you get Lilith instead of Jupiter which makes it way more occult and psychic I think.
    Funnily enough I now have this trio my on Pallas Athena also and I guess thats what all my fighting recently has been about. I also am thinking its about shielding yourself from psychic attack and negative people.

  5. What about Sun Venus Lilith Fortuna and Pandora conjunct in Cancer in the 10th house? Would that make for an intense and creative artist of some sort??

  6. I just looked at my Parallels and I have the Sun parallel Mean Lilith. When I wrote this I had no idea. Yep this is me! I was a big Numan fan as a Teen. (Parallels are like a light conjunction.)

  7. Interesting altogether. Hats off to you brave women and Bella I totally hear you about maturing into it all.Drew Barrymore is one of my favorites and I’m surprised to hear about Spielberg. Wasn’t thinking of Lilith as a feminist. I’m wondering what a man does with his Lilith in a chart.

    1. Hi Charyl ~

      In my husband’s case, he married his BM Lilith.:) His BM Lilith- Chiron conjunction in the 10th is *exactly* conjunct my Moon-Kaali conjunction. I’m a very Lilithy character myself, with BM Lilith in the 8th, close to my South Node and exactly opposite my Sun.

  8. And what about Dark Moon, Waldemath…i have it conjunct my Sun, Mercury and Mars.
    I don,t find info on this dark moon as i find about the others lilith,s.

    1. Hi Sphinx, here is an article I wrote about the dark moon. It’s more of a fine tuner than the main Black Moon Lilith, but for you it is a major influence being conjunct a luminary and two personals. Some of the meaning above of Black Moon Lilith still applies I think though. https://marinadarkstar.wpengine.com/waldemath/

    2. Also my notes say it is Menopause and the Shadow, colour black. Witchy.
      Vengeance, sadomasochism, demons, rage, anti mother, fairytales, nightmares, ghosts, nymph, gremlins, psycho, toxic, dept, psych, stalkers, emotional pain, catharsis, madness. The dark hurt nasty side to channel it out turn to arts. Baby Killer, highly individualized soul desires that are denied personal satisfaction for hi’er expression or social spiritual levels. h 58 if your looking for it’s number.

  9. Oh I probably got this from Marina’s articles. Sorry, fatigued kind of day

    1. My neighbour and I have been getting to know each other these last 2 years as he works on his garden. He stuck his tongue out at me the other day as I didn’t take the time to stop and talk. Gemini RX Venus conjuncting natal Uranus as it turns Direct on my asc. This electromagnetic force caused my ex to spill his coffee all over himself big time on our 2nd reunion meeting and the hormone class action news just came through that the courts threw out the appeal and we progress to trial next year. It’s lookin like money in the bank. Venus. But it also looks to me like a Uranus/venus turning pt. in my life and with it in this long cycle it looks even more significant. That’s just my feelings about it esp. with this pluto Uranus square added to it which timing is also on the mark. This class action law in Canada just went through in 1995 according to the foreword of the appeal.

  10. I,v got the other Lilith,s in scorpio 7th house (h13, h21) and the asteroid 1181 in sag 8th house. H58 at 5th house conjunct sun, mercury and mars.
    At natal chart i have moon/neptune conjunct in the 8th house, at progressed chart, lilith is already conjunct neptune.
    I have a very strong, fierce and somehow masculine sun with mercury, mars and a wide pluto conjunction all in the 5th house! So Lilith and moon/nep are very importante to me in the intimacy of the scorpio and the 8th house. They are my feminine cluster 🙂 and lilith in scorpio is at home.
    Thank you Charyl 🙂

    1. Morning Sphinx. I know a few people with sun mars conjunct and I know it gives very strong energy. I mean energy. It can vary in it’s presentation as a strong full 12th can put a subdued service spin on it.
      But watch out. It can throw a good snow ball and accurate. Pluto wherever it is gives extra energy too. One would think your in the entertainment field in some way. 8th house, shared appetites and resources – depends on what those are eh. Lots of room for the imagination there. When Neptune crossed my moon in the 10th Mc, my brain fell apart. I would be afraid to come home on the bus from my friends at night cause felt I had no way to protect myself with my brain in such a state. Felt literally like it split in two. If the fire alarms went off in our complex and I had to go downstairs, it was torture for me esp. with a full 12th too. I recovered and ultimately found the next level too. In 2002, close to that time..
      I was recovering from cancer so health Vertex/destiny oriented and climbing mountains, drinking fresh water and beautiful scenery out my window. I would think with all that energy you would do well Being and even keeping Neptune on track. Lilith for me is conj. chiron 5th.Virgo. Everyman wants me to work for him. Even now there is a nagging emphasis on me “working” at 68 yet after raising two kids on my own. The big foot wants to crunch me down into the ground a bit more. grr.

  11. I have Sun closely conjunct Lilith in 4th house/Libra, with Pluto also in 4th house/conjunct IC. I was beaten a lot by my dad as a child, and I “eclipsed” him, in a sense, when he contracted cancer and died when I was 13. I have always struggled since childhood to feel a part of the family unit.

    In the present day, I’m married to a man whose previous wife was (is) severely Type 1 bipolar, and non-med-compliant. He’d been contemplating leaving that marriage for over a decade due to the extreme chaos she’d caused in the life of their family. He and I had known each other for about three months, then suddenly commenced a romantic relationship; then, a week later, he told her that he was leaving her. As is typical in our patriarchal culture, she and her children have demonized me as The Other Woman. I’ll cop to being the “catalyst” for that breakup, but at the end of the day, this woman (who ironically, was no saint in the fidelity department herself) destroyed her own marriage and takes NO responsibility for doing so.

    The “family” part of the situation is very painful for me, and carrying this sense of taboo in family situations is definitely a long-standing pattern in my life.

    My husband I lead a very happy life together as a couple–I’ve got no 7th house karma, thankfully–but hubby has Pluto in 7th conjunct DC and NN in 7th also–and both of these for him are in Libra. Does that paint a picture, or what? The only time trouble arises for us is when issues related to his prior family (children, who are now grown or close to age 18) arise.

  12. I have this in Cap, on Facies of all things, so I’ve been demonized by the best of people, including my parents, my ex wife’s parents, employers, superiors, teachers, men in uniform, experts, bureaucrats, elderly neighbors and pretty much any Saturn figure you can think of. Having my AC in Scorpio doesn’t exactly help, nor does Neptune/Moon in Scorp. The one thing they all had in common was not having a clue of what I really am. Most of them were also very poor imitations or approximations of a real Saturn figure, so of course they had to immediately attack me, the real Saturn figure, my Cap stellium, my Saturn on the angles and my heavy 10th.

    I’ve sometimes been mistaken for gay, even by my own father. In reality, I’m into women, but too shy and too much of a nice guy to be accepted by most of them. A lot of superficial women also seem to think I’m no good, without any actual evidence whatsoever. On the other hand, some highly perceptive individuals have been able to see me as I am. I think it’s Sol/Lilith that makes me get so well along with rape victims, abused women and ones with an undeservedly bad reputation. Animals love me. For most of my life, I’ve been a bit of an outcast. My worst enemy, a real maggot, died in a collision the day Pluto first hit my Lilith exactly. In his lifetime, he’d expressed nothing but the worst imaginable traits of a critical Lilith on Scheat.

  13. Thank you for this post. How can I find out where black moon Lilith lies in a chart?

  14. I enjoy your website a great deal and visit often to read your articles. However, it does concern me that you, like many astrologers, write as if same-sex relationships were something to be “explained” by the chart. Bisexuality and homosexuality are just as normal as being heterosexual. Yet no one ever writes that a specific planetary configuration indicates a tendency toward heterosexuality.

    1. Hmmm I have thought about this a great deal and although one cannot tell the sex of a person by looking at the chart. There are definitely charts that are more macho than others just as there are charts that are more romantic and feminine. The biological norm is heterosexuality because it is about procreation and with respect, homosexuality is not the norm (percentage wise) in the general population, just as it is not the norm to decide NOT to have children. I use Lilith to explain why a woman might choose to not have children or restrict the amount she has in order to concentrate on her work. This is not the norm. Lilith resonates with people who make sexual choices that are “not the norm”, wether they are gay or straight.

    2. Alfred Kinsey’s research, way back in the 1940s, revealed that homosexuality is not a form of behavior practiced exclusively by a small and separate population. Most people’s sexual fantasies and behaviors shift over time. Relatively few people are Kinsey 0’s or even 1’s (exclusively heterosexual). Kinsey’s resarch revealed that homosexuality does not represent an abnormality. It is simply, then as now, a matter of cultural prejudices privileging one form of behavior, while condemning others.

      Nearly 70 years after the publication of Kinsey’s reearch, many countries are finally accepting gay rights, validating the normalcy of same-gender relationships. As someone fascinated by astrology, I think it is unfortunate that so many astrologers lag behind the times on this issue. At its best, astrology provides a lens for self-study and personal growth. The reluctance of many astrologers to let go of outdated language and attitudes about homosexuality puzzles me. I have read that astrology as an art/science is ruled either by forward-thinking Uranus or idealistic Neptune. Yet when it comes to the topic of sexuality, many astrologers write in a very Saturnine fashion, clinging to antiquated notions.

    3. Melissa,

      I am not homophobic. I have many gay and bisexual friends who i like and respect as normal if not better human beings, more so because of their lifestyles that are usually devoid of hypocrisy.
      But trying to argue that gay/bisexual behavior should be treated as a regular part of the ‘norm’ is taking things out of proportion.
      For example some people like to have sex with animals. And if some researcher finds that a high percentage of people (in his sample of 50) at some point in their lives ‘thought about sex with animals’, then should the entire world consider ‘buggery’ or sex with animals as normal?

      I full agree with Marina that procreation oriented heterosexuality within the same species is the norm for the us, the human species as well as many other species. This is a fact imprinted in nature.

    4. Seriously Marion? You claim to have many bisexual and gay friends yet you compare being gay with bestiality? Do you work for FOX news? Because that’s where that kind of comparison most often comes from.

      You need to do a lot more research on nature before you start talking about what is “imprinted” on it. There is actually much more variety than you think. Homosexuality exists in many different species. And some species don’t follow the male-female procreative model at all but use parthenogenesis.

      The only thing that the “heterosexuality is norma, homosexuality isn’tl” argument does is reveal the person using it as emotionally dependent on an extremely narrow and prejudiced world view. Actually, perhaps astrologers should be looking for markers of that trait in the natal chart.

    5. Also, it’s interesting that people use percentages to “prove” their own prejudiced belief that homosexuality is somehow not normal. There is not a high percentage of redheads in the world, either. Yet few modern people would argue that having red hair somehow makes an individual abnormal. Their hair color is simply viewed as a variation within the range of human norms.

  15. There are norms and there are variations/exceptions to norms in every sphere; both organic and inorganic. The variations are valid and real. Well adapted variations help the collective norm to evolve while mal-adapted variations are destroyed by the environment.
    And the norm is not always universally right. 200 years ago it was ‘normal’ to buy and sell people (Slavery). Today in some parts of the world it is still ‘normal’ for old tribal men to marry 8 year old girls. In those two cases, ‘variations’ to the norm help/ed the norms to evolve.
    However, percentages are what defines the norm for any given time/space, whether you like it or not. There are ‘public fora’ to address the norm and there are ‘activist fora’ to address and promote the variations. Let let both live and let live in a progressive dialogue without one trying to forcibly skew the other’s focus.

    1. Good point about “The Norm”. Norm does not equal good and it is the variations to the norm that help us evolve. 🙂 Lilith!!

      Melissa, fantasies and what one actually practices in real life are two different things. Some people have rape fantasies, but do they actually want to be physically raped?!? I don’t think so…

      This thread is very Lilith in itself. How did we get from “The Norm” onto rape and bestiality?

  16. Totally agree with you Marina.
    I wear Lilith on my breastplate with Lilith conjunct MC and i am totally ‘devoted’ to working it with ‘Vesta’ squaring it. And my Lilith is very harmoniously integrated with my karmic life path sextiling/trining NN-SN. All three aspects within a degree.
    My lifestyle and beliefs are not exactly aligned with the ‘norms’ of the culture where i live. Far from it.
    But having said that, i do believe it is not fair to expect astrologers (or any professional publisher for that matter) to cater to every single variation to the general reader profile.
    For example i don’t expect an astrology article on general synastry/parenting to devote 50% of its space to ‘who of the lesbian couple will lend her womb for implanting donated sperm’. It is a valid theme but for another forum, specialized article or private consultation, i believe.

    Sorry Melissa, didn’t mean to personally offend you or anyone.

    1. Marina–we got to bestiality because Marion used that as a point of comparison for homosexuality. you yourself raised the issue of rape. Stop and think about what it says that those are the points of comparison that, respectively, Marion and you offered with regard to homosexuality. It was the two of you, not me, who dragged the discussion in that direction.

      Marion– raising a fair point about astrology’s tendency to speak of homosexuality as odd/strange does not equate to “expecting expert astrologers to cater to every single variation” It is unfortunate that you feel such a reflexive need to defend the status quo rather than opening your mind.

      My point was very much on target in regard to the article. It is time for the practice of astrology to evolve in its attitudes toward gays and lesbians, just as other aspects of modern culture have with the legalization of same-sex marriage in an increasing number of places. Apparently my raising this point stirred up some very Lilith-ian issues in you, causing each of you bringing up your own Lilithian sexual fears/fantasies.

    2. You are damn right Melissa. Today transiting Lilith is exactly within a degree opposite my natal MC-Lilith conjunction as i just found out, a day that comes round every 9 years!. So i guess i wasn’t in a mood to let any one unfairly criticize a free-blog service by an experienced astrologer!

      We got to bestiality and rape because the topic IS about sex and variants of it. After all isn’t ‘sex’ what primarily differentiates between homosexuals from heterosexuals, as the two terms themselves suggest?

      Too bad for you if Marina is not a gay rights crusader. But trust me there are some astrologers who frequently focus on variant subjects. Take your grievances there.

    3. Marion, go build your strawman elsewhere. I raised a valid question, I did not express a “grievance.” But people deeply invested in the social status quo always think anyone who questions it, no matter how politely, as a threat. The same thing always occurs with any type of prejudice, whether racism, misogyny or homophobia.

      There was no need for you to defend Marina because there was never any “unfair criticism”–merely the polite raising of a question. Don’t kid yourself–the real reason you jumped into the discussion wasn’t a desire to defend anyone but that you feel threatened by the notion of LGBT equality.

      My language throughout this discussion has been far more respectful then yours. Both you and Marina indulged your prejudices by comparing consensual sex between two people of the same gender with forms of non-consensual sex (since animals obviously cannot give meaningful consent.) No intelligent modern person sees homosexuality as comparable to either of these. Only the dinosaurs who appear on venues like Fox News say such things.

      It’s too bad you use your Lilith transit as an excuse for rudeness rather than as an opportunity to challenge your own sexual prejudices . If you had the courage to do that, you might actually evolve rather than remaining a narrow-minded individual who lashes out at those different from her. Your anger at the very idea that someone might question your cherished stereotypes speaks volumes about you.

    1. language takes awhile to catch up w/ modern thought….astrology is ancient.

  17. Melissa,

    My best & dearest friend is a lesbian (not in the closet) and i am a single mom by choice, for your information. Far from the norm!
    Lilith IS the deviant form of what is considered ‘normal for a woman’ by the belief/value standards of most readers of this blog, though a small number of progressive/evolved/variant readers may differ, rightly or wrongly so. Period!
    All i was saying is that it is not fair to expect a regular astrology article to focus on a very small number of readers. If the article is on pregnancy it shouldn’t harp about ‘surrogate motherhood’ or ‘frozen eggs’. If it is on career shouldn’t harp about ‘career criminals’ or ‘the pope’. And similarly if it is on marriage it shouldn’t harp on ‘lord Buddha’s marriage to his estranged wife’! Now Lord Buddha is a great spiritual personality for whom i have a lot of respect, but his marriage is not comparable to that of most people reading the article. Same goes for the career of Pope.
    If Buddha or the Pope expects astrology articles to address those respective themes from their perspective, i can only say they are narrow minded and selfish no matter who they are!
    Because ‘narrow mindedness’ and ‘selfishness’ has to do with expecting a public forum to cater to the ‘narrow’ 0.01% group of ‘self’ surpassing the 99.99% of others.

    I was not passing any value/moral judgement on whether homosexuality is right or wrong. It is you who has been getting issues mixed up.
    You can have the last word. I am not going to comment on anything you write in response to this cos i have better things to do than engage in childish debates.
    Good luck with your crusades for social change.

    1. Marion,

      Absolutely nothing you write above makes any sense or has any bearing on discussion. Ask your lesbian best friend whether or not it is rude to compare homosexuality to bestiality. Simply raising a question does not mean someone is on a “crusade”–except to those so mired in conservative ideas they feel threatened by the question.

    2. Melissa,
      Couldn’t resist a reply. Sorry!
      Neither me nor Marina said that homosexuality is wrong or bestiality is wrong or rape fantasies are wrong! We just said they are variants.
      Animals do show consent when they don’t attempt to run away from a situation. So perhaps bestiality amounts to ‘consenting sex’ that causes no harm to anyone and perhaps also satisfies both parties. So maybe it is right in some cultures and situations.
      So then, aren’t you the one here judging that it is wrong with your narrow perspectives limited to justifying only homosexuality within human species?

      Grow up girl! And i say it again; Live and let live and pick your fora accordingly.

    3. I have to jump in here. Nobody is comparing bestiality or rape to homosexuality. They are just not!!! Oh dear, I had a feeling that I should’ve used a less flammable example of a fantasy. But Melissa it seems you will see everything as a judgement of your sexuality. Homosexuals are not immune to intolerance.
      Back to the astrology. The real question was if one can see sexuality in a chart. I don’t really believe that you can tell if someone is gay by their chart. Isn’t it more that we are all on a spectrum?

      So like I said earlier, a man who has a very feminine chart who also is more open to experimentation may express himself as gay more likely than a man with a very conservative chart which is very masculine. A woman with the very same feminine chart may not express herself as lesbian. I’m no expert on this. I’m just hypothesising. I have had sexual relationships with gay men who actually said they were bi-sexual, but that no one in the gay community trusts a bi-sexual so they were kind of forced to label themselves homosexual. See above re: Intolerance.

      A girlfriend of mine fell in love with a girl and had relationship with her, but she says she’s not a lesbian because why do we have to define ourselves at all? I see her point. Now with astrology, nothing is cut and dried either. In order to understand a chart it is useful to break down elements of it and make judgements on that aspect.
      Wether it is yin or yang, masculine or feminine, gay or straight, the norm (Saturn) or deviant (Uranus). It’s all a polarity, nothing is wrong.

      I just also wanted to add that the gay community seem to be happy with claiming the Pleiades as a gay constellation so why not Lilith? https://astrorevelations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/pleiades-homosexual-constellation.html
      I think this was written by a gay man.

      Some great articles here. It’s a shame that some of the links are broken because I really wanted to read the Eris one.
      https://astroqueer.tripod.com/articles.html

      And apparently Pallas Athena is a gender bender.
      “The results were that Pallas made a significant aspect in every one of the trans-folks’ charts, and frequently to their Suns, Moons or Ascendants. Even more interesting, most of the “significant other” charts had Pallas conjunct or in major aspect to Venus, which suggests that something in their makeup caused them to be romantically drawn to people of unconventional gender.”
      https://www.churchofasphodel.org/articles/pallas_the_genderbender.html?q=_cauldronfarm/asphodel/articles/pallas_the_genderbender.html

      Are gay people the only people allowed to talk about sexuality and astrology then? Just because I am not labelling myself gay doesn’t not mean I cannot talk about this subject. I have Lilith conjunct Mars and am infinitely fascinated by any expression of sexuality in astrology wether gay, straight or in an category that hasn’t even been invented yet! I also have written about the gay Pleiades.https://marinadarkstar.wpengine.com/pleiades/ My North Node is on Alcyone. That’s where my soul is heading… 😉 and it’s very close to my heart.

    4. Marina,

      You would have retained some dignity by just staying out of the dispute which Marion has sought to escalate to the point of absurdity. If you review her words, she did compare bestiality with homosexuality, and continues to rant on about how bestiality is more acceptable than gay sexuality.

      Oh, and for the record, I happen to be hetero. I care about LGBT issues because many people close to me, including my brother, are gay. Obviously I don’t think only gay people can talk about sexuality and astrology, otherwise I would never have posted here. It’s simply that when the discussion fails relies on stereotypes it becomes absurd. My brother and many other gay people I know distrust astrologers, not for the usual reasons many people cite, but because nearly every time they pick up a book or read an article, the astrologer-writer spouts ridiculous cliches.

      If you want to grow and evolve, Marina, stop associating withe the Marions of the world. Otherwise you’ll end up like her, your mind a stale, airless and windowless room. She has imprisoned herself in her own prejudices and thrashes against the walls screaming about bestiality (seriously, read her latest post)

    5. Excuse me !?! But I had to jump and try and bring things back to the discussion of astrology and sexuality. We grow and evolve by letting everyone have their say and allowing others to make of this argument what they will.
      You posted a question directed at astrologers, so as an astrologer I answered.

  18. If anyone needs to grow up it’s you, Marion. I have been “living and letting live”–you are the one who behaved with irrational anger at the idea that I dared to post a question here. Your attempt to justify bestiality is hilariously wrong and shows just how far you’re willing to go for the sake of “winning” an argument. (An argument built up solely by your own hostility by the way, since I posted here with no hostile intent or even “crusading” intent) As far as picking a forum, this site is open to the public, not excluded to some closed membership. Your desire to drive me to some other forum only reveals that you can’t handle reading viewpoints other than your own.

    Every word you have written on this topic–as well as any future rantings and ravings of yours–only serve to reveal you as unevolved and intolerent.

  19. Melissa,

    Did you know that in some cultures homosexuality is punishable by law while bestiality is not? Of course law makers in those countries must be ‘hilarious clowns’, because Melissa thinks so.

    Now you are entertaining me! Do you want me to also tell you how rape fantasies might be right and good for human evolution? Don’t even get me started.

    Look, let other readers who are evolved enough to understand the tone, content and language in the comments be the judges of who has been ranting & intolerant toward general human society.

    Your original comment was not a mere question seeking an answer or opinion, it was a statement about being ‘disappointed’ with the publishing astrologer and other astrologers!

    Ok, i am off your case. Sorry again. I don’t gain anything by winning arguments with strangers on the internet.

    1. Get off it already, Marion. Seek help from a qualified therapist. Your need to disparage someone you don’t even know, to delude yourself that you have “won” something by flinging your prejudices around online is truly pathetic.

    2. The countries you cite to validate your pro-bestiality/anti-homosexuality argument are on the Human Rights Watch list for the very reasons you mention. I doubt if you are actually in favor of human rights being violated. But you have let your desire to “win” an argument run away with you. What’s next? Quoting Hitler?

      Get a grip on yourself, deal with your anger issues. The only people who will agree with what you write are those who already came here with those same notions. Others who have similar beliefs to mine will disagree with you. Obviously you will never succeed in making me change my mind. So what is there to win? Nothing. People who disagree with you will continue to exist on the internet, including astrology sites, and we will continue to speak our minds. Get used to it.

      I feel sorry for you that you cannot control your anger. You have clearly worked yourself up into a lather at someone you don’t even know, to the extent that you are willing to (pretend to? ) take the side of repressive regimes. And all because someone online expressed an opinion you dislike.

      I am unsubscribing from this thread so if you post any further on this issue, you will in effect be shouting and flailing at an empty room.

  20. I have Pallas in Gemini natally and and Venus in Virgo with pretty strong Mercurial undercurrents and can’t really comment on astrology and sexuality per se. For me relationships in general are about the mind and the passion of the mind. If I don’t have both, then generally I don’t have a real relationship. Natally I have saturn in Gemini with all of the relevant challenges and communication challenges at exactly 6 degrees, but in time as I age this becomes a greater strength. I am grateful for the capacity to escape from extremely challenging problems in creative ways. Sexuality can be a form of communication and of course I fully support individual modes of communication. As a Virgo I tend to categorize and solve problems, the catch-22 is that labels can become problems themselves via fallacy of omission due to the limitations of the label intended to solve a given problem. In the end treatment of a symptom or set of symptoms only prolongs the problem and causality is never addressed. Symptomatic thinking can never access the universal mind which is less bound by limited thought process. At what point can someone truly say this must always be done in this exact way and and that ‘can’t, or ‘impossibility’ is the only answer? With regard to intolerance, I would assume that this would be a double edged sword depending upon what universe it was placed. Bias of some sort may be part of the human condition, but I don’t believe it to be a controlling factor of the universal mind. What is may or may not be, just as what isn’t may or may not be in a space time continuum. Just throwing this out there…

  21. Marina,

    I fully agree with you that “Homosexuals are not immune to intolerance toward others.”
    True that minority groups are more susceptible to being sidelined by systems that cater to a majority. And it is a must that all progressive societies should engage and involve with all such groups in order to evolve collectively.
    But in the meantime, there are cases where ‘minor percentage group’ members and their supporters project their anger and intolerance toward mainstream society based on their perception (rather than reality) of being marginalized. It is not uncommon for some of them to lash out, for no good reason, at neutral members of the mainstream who are actually are neither ‘anti’ nor ‘pro’ their group. This usually happens because they appropriate anything and everything to ‘they being in that given minority group’. More like ‘Oh your car crashed into mine because i have X skin color or because i have Y disease or because i have Z religious affiliation etc’
    To avoid beating the same old horse of homosexuality, lets take another example from disabled people who are also a ‘minor percentage group’. Some of them (not all) hate being called ‘disabled’ because they consider it to be labeling. Ok, so then others start calling them ‘differently-abled’. They hate that too because it is taken as ‘adding insult to injury’. Then people start calling them ‘people with special needs’. They hate that too because ‘their needs are same as all humans’ etc. etc..
    So then what word does one use to identify/refer to them especially in situations necessitating provision of specialized services to them, such as assistance in an aircraft.
    You cant win with such people who are bitter due to their own personal challenges. ‘Do and you are damned and dont and you are damned’!

    Btw, i have Asc, Sun and Pallas in a grand earth trine. Lilith is on MC. I have a conflict prone Mars- Pluto conjunction in the 5H (in the social sign of Libra) sextiling a fantasy prone Neptune-Moon conjunction in 7H (in fast fleeting Saggitarius). Strong social deviant signature for sure. I most definitely belong to a social minority group myself and am not homophobic or anti-homosexual at all!

    Anyway Marina, do keep up the good work you are doing on the blog. I have been a reader for sometime though i have not commented before. I like your variety of astrology on my plate, because it refers to star constellations and decanates, which helps me find bridges between western astrology and Nakshatra based Vedic astrology.

  22. Okay, just a quick correction that me and my Virgo Moon are often making. The Black Moon that pops up on charts automatically is the Mean Black Moon Lilith. It is not in any way, shape, or form the lunar apogee. That is a point ON the Moon’s orbit which indicates the point where the Moon would be farthest from the Earth given the location of the Moon at the time and place the chart was made. It is calculated to an approximate location and given the name Interpolated Lunar Apogee, and it is a Black Moon point but not the one typically used in charts. You have to add it specially in Astrodienst from the list of hypothetical and additional objects.

    The Mean Black Moon Lilith is the point WITHIN the Moon’s orbit which is the averaged-out second focal point of the Moon’s elliptical orbit around the earth, the first focal point being the center of the Earth. A circle has one center, an ellipse has two. The true Black Moon Lilith, or osculating Lilith, is the actual focal point at the moment the chart was created. Because of the Moon’s bumpy, imperfect orbit, it moves quite a lot from here to there, back and forth, but overall forward along the path and at the pace indicated by the Mean Black Moon.

    Example. My osculating Lilith is at 0 Aquarius, conjunct asteroid Academia (unfortunately for my career experiences with academia) and my current progressed Venus. My Mean Black Moon is at 20 Aquarius, conjunct Pholus at 19, and in between lie Mars and Venus retrograde at 14 and 13 Aquarius. If this sounds familiar, Marina, it is because we were born about two weeks apart. My ILA Lilith is at 26 Aquarius conjunct Pallas, more or less, at 24 Aquarius. Not at all the same as the Mean Black Moon, as you can see. And, just for completeness, my asteroid Lilith is opposite my 19 Cap Sun at 20 Cancer, retrograde, in my sixth, and the hypothetical Dark Moon object is at 10 Aries, tightly conjunct Eris and Prometheus, a fitting placement perhaps for someone who’s often perceived as stirring up trouble to get the correct truth out. Lol

    Think of what this implies about the function and experience of the Black Moon. It is a second center of gravity, but completely lacking in visible, substantive form, around which we must balance our emotional cores and dependency needs (Moon). It is like dancing with an invisible partner. Think of Golum wrestling Bilbo Baggins the first time Bilbo slips on the ring. A partner we cannot see but definitely feel and have to accommodate or be thrown off center.

    Best wishes, Marina. Almost always read your posts and enjoy their thoughtful yet freewheeling trips through the stars.

  23. I’m guessing Sun conjunct Eris then is a mix between Sun/lilith and Sun/Pluto conjuncting.

  24. Lilith conjunct Sun.
    Let me revise a bit here. For me lilith seems to be a dominant. I have this aspect. But my Arian sun is compounded by multiple “dark” forces or “malfics” Lilith isn’t the closest conjunction tho. Apophis wins the race here. Fallowed be Eros, Pallas, Pholus and Psyche. These are dark forces indeed. Rebellion, outcast, Death, passion, extacy, clarity of vision and, justice. Add weakness in succumbing to desires.(I believe this last part is Pholus influence). Or it just adds to it.
    Anyway to get back on track. The standard chart depicting a Natal Lilith Natal Arian sun in the 8th . Plays out as described above. One is an outcast from the dominant patriarchal system. A loner away from solar influence. An ego in the dark of life. An ego in a place no one dares to venture. Or the more solar type are not likely to venture.
    This is also bound to bring up problems. The direction one is headed or learning to move toward is one identified with rejection and seclusion. And what I mean by this is the basis moving forward toward any objective. Carries with it the burden of it being done in a way that ultimately leads to being rejected or the need to say “[email protected]&$ ¥u0” and go the opposite way you intended to in the first place. This a not an easy placement to have. And one must realize this cycle.

  25. I was reading above and noticed that you say the Moon of Edward Kelly at 1 degree Aquarius is in opposition to John Dee’s Sun/Lilith conjunction at 29 degrees Virgo. Actually unless I am mistaken this would make Kelly’s Moon in trine to Dee’s Sun/Lilith conjunction not in opposition to it. It would seem this synastry aspect between the two would speak even more to their apparent collaborative ease, although an opposition would possibly contribute to a similar relationship at least concerning spiritualism.

  26. What do you think of Sun conjunct Lilith in Leo via synastry Marina?

    I’ve heard Lilith plays out like pluto. These 2 people’s chart also have moon square pluto double whammy. Is that what aids the intensity only or could Lilith be the cause as well.

    The woman has the Lilith placement on the man’s sun. Does he view her as the evil seductress or is it his actual Lilith placement that is viewed that way. This is what I’d like to clarify and who feels the intensity the most.

    Thanks.

  27. I just learned i have True Lilith 20° 04′ Virgo conjunct my Sun 20°07′ Virgo so from my understanding it would be cazimi. I am a female and have always had issues with my supposed role as a woman in this patriarchal society. I have never desired to get married or have children and indeed have always fared better in relationships where I have a lot of freedom to be myself. I also have the sun conjuncting Venus and Pluto, with Pluto conjuncting my ascendant. From the 12th house…. if that doesn’t add layers lol.

  28. I have a Sun/Venus/Lilith conjunction in Sagittarius, all the 3 planets trine my Jupiter in Leo. I’m wondering what that means. ?

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