Libra & Virgo Rulership

Here is an old blog post where I questioned the rulership of Libra and Virgo. Sitting side by side it seems apt that the two possible candidates are also closely connected in the Persephone Myth. Namely Ceres and Eris. I always thought Chiron fitted very well with the 6th house and Virgo and his partner Lilith very well for Libra and the 7th (partners and open enemies!) And thought maybe they should co-rule. They certainly resonate. I came to realize however that they were just a messengers. Lilith and Chiron are both quite similar in some respects, in that they are quite wayward and force you to think outside the box.

But an asteroid and a hypothetical moon do not carry the weight and stability that is required to rule a sign. They are the court jesters to the Monarchs. Some would considered the fool wiser than the King, but he is shamanic. Shamans don’t get to govern in a Saturnian world.

The Persephone Constellations

The constellations of Libra & Virgo which neighbours Scorpio is where we find the whole Persephone Myth. The actors are the new dwarf planets: Eris as Persephone, Ceres as Demeter (her mother) Pluto as Hades.

Now Eris you may feel is miscast as Persephone, but we really have no other option since Persephone and Proserpina are busy in Rep theatre playing themselves as mere asteroids. So Eris the understudy gets the chance to play the biggy. Queen Of the Underworld herself.

The play is set in the constellations of Scorpio, Libra and Virgo. Scorpio of course being the underworld. Virgo with her sheath of corn being the fertile earth. Libra is the chariot used as transportation between these worlds.

As an interesting sidenote, Libra didnt exist as as constellation in its own right until the Romans. Before that Scorpio was a 60 deg sign stretching across the terrane of Libra and Scorpio. The scales were once known as the claws of the Scorpion.

Rulership Of  Virgo & Libra

So I am proposing then that Ceres rules Virgo, Eris (As Persephone) rules Libra and Pluto continues it’s rulership over Scorpio. Only time will tell if these new actors can deliver in these roles. Pluto is already proven. Cere’s seems to fit the bill as Demeter, Persephones mother. Though it put’s a whole new slant on supposedly barren Virgo.

With Eris? there is a bigger question mark. Can the Goddess of Strife and discord really cut it as Queen Of the Underworld? Can she successfully bridge these two opposing worlds and bring harmony here as Libra’s representative?

Quite a few Astrologers have made a good case for Persephone for Libra. But Eris is just too new. Assigning Goddess rulership to two more signs brings up the ruling Goddess to God ratio from 4 to 8. Which is good news for those who feel that the Moon and Venus need some help representing women’s changing role in the 21st century.

This is quite a big project. I guess the starting point will be examining the Persephone Myth itself and how it fit’s in around the mythology of the constellations. There are quite a few versions of it, and it’s rich symbolism can be interpreted in many ways too.

Then I have to look at how Persephone really functions within that myth and how Eris can take on her role. Maybe she will put her own spin on it and bring Persephone up to date. Persephone on the other hand could perhaps tame Eris’s impulsiveness and get her to compromise. Well that’s quite Libran for a start….

Related Posts:- Ceres – Eris – Dark Goddess Archetype as Ruler – The Persephone Myth

43 thoughts on “Libra & Virgo Rulership

  1. “spicifera est Virgo Cereris” — “The Virgin with her sheaf belongs to Ceres”. [Astronomica, Manilius, 1st century AD, p.117]

    Seems it’s hard to argue with Ceres ruling Virgo.

    “Thus she was known in the Attic dialect as Kore, the Maiden, representing Persephone, the Roman Proserpina, daughter of Demeter, the Roman Ceres; while in the Ionic dialect Nonnus, of our 5th century, called her stakhuodes Koure {Page 461} (Stachyodes Koure), the Wheat-bearing Maiden, spicifera Virgo Cereris, the Virgo spicea munera gestans of Manilius. When regarded as Proserpina, she was being abducted by Pluto in his Chariot, the stars of adjacent Libra; and the constellation also was Demeter herself, the Ceres spicifera dea, changed by the astrologers to Arista, Harvest, of which Ceres was goddess. Caesius had it Arista Puellae, that would seem more correct as Aristae Puella, the Maiden of the Harvest.” [Star Names – Their Meaning and Lore, Allen, p.461]

    Virgo – Libra – Scorpio

    Greek: Demeter – Persephone – Hades

    Roman: Ceres – Proserpina – Pluto

  2. Hi Marina — I may be getting in over my head here, as I’ve just begun reading up on Persephone/Eris and Ceres (thanks to Funk Astrology and Karen @ Ravenesque), so please bear with me if my observations don’t quite hit their mark; I admit I can’t quite get my head around it (yet).

    In my own chart, the Libran theme of balance is played out through a series of exact oppositions involving my packed 2nd house – ruled by Libra – and my Aries ruled 8th, which houses my Lilith corridor. Osc. Lilith is exactly conjunct Eris, and exactly opposite my 2nd house Ceres. When I say exact, I mean in the same degree. I’m sure this can be interpreted in many ways, but after reading your post, it’s the more literal interpretation involving mother and daughter that jumps out at me. While my mother and I definitely shared an intense psychic bond, it was not an easy relationship, and in a more practical sense, I provided material and emotional resources in order to care for her physical/emotional needs until her death. Ceres also trines my Moon in the 5th (and my MC/Aldebaran conjunction), and quintiles Saturn in the 4th; while Eris/Osc. Lilith sextiles my Moon and MC/Aldebaran, and biquintiles my Pluto in the 12th.

    As I said, I don’t know if any of this relates or not, but I did think it was interesting.:)

  3. @ LB.
    Thanks so much for this because it totally relates! I’d prefer to see the chart so I can get a better picture of it. But from what you’ve written and I can see it would’nt have been an easy relationshop despite the psychic bond because of Eris conjunct the more unstable Osc Lilith. You have that in the 8th too which is great for occult studies, tho pretty intense! Opposing ceres trine Moon pretty much decribes a Percephone type relationship and the fact its in the 2nd certainly illustrates well what you have described your relationship to be.

    You have prompted me to look at my own Ceres once more in relation to my own daughter and Mother and the synastry is astounding which I will write about more fully at a later date.

    re;This article,. I wrote it a while back when I was at the beginning of my Ceres journey. I am no longer concerned about rulerships as the signs are no longer an issue with me so the point of it is rather moot.

    The myth of Percephone is certainly helpfull in deciphering the meaning of Ceres and Eris, but the best way to really see their significance is to see how they work by looking at charts ofcourse.I have seen the mother/daughter issue come up again and again. It think Ceres fine tunes things that the Moon alone cannot tell you. And of course it is important to look at the 10th house.
    Maybe have a look at how your Eris is aspected by your mothers Ceres if at all. I have a double whammy with my mothers in synastry. Her Cere is conjunct my Eris and vice versa. It is a complex and difficult relationship at the best of times….

  4. Good discussion 🙂 Re: the maternal and Ceres – I have natal Ceres conjunct the POF and motherhood has been my saviour on many levels. It aided me in breaking the deeply abusive cycle I endured with she-who-wont-be-named and ultimately cut the tie permanently. It is such a long story but the interesting twist – whilst the ‘she’ and I share no aspects or synastry with Ceres or Eris – my daughter and I do. My Persephone is conjunct her Eris and this year in fact, little minx brewed up some Eris strife with the ‘she’ and my Persephone had to swoop in and bring it to a final end.

  5. @Marina
    Hi Marina – Glad you found my comment helpful; I was a bit worried I was on the wrong track. I checked my mother’s chart, and sure enough, her Ceres is conjunct my Eris (in her and my 8th), and my Persephone is conjunct her North Node (in her and my 12th); we both have a Virgo Ascendant. Good call, and very interesting, if not illuminating!

    These Ceres/Eris aspects reinforce one of the dominant themes of my chart, and in some ways, help to clarify the true nature of my relationship with my mother. My natal Moon (in the 5th) also receives a very close square from my Mercury/Neptune/Jupiter conjunction (in Scorpio in the 2nd/3rd). And to top it all off, Asteroid Lilith is conjunct my Jupiter.

    And yes, some of my earlier 8th house experiences were pretty intense. I’ve learned over the years to avoid certain types of situations and/or energies, and to never go near Ouija Boards! Thankfully, my 2nd house has helped to ground me. I’ve been reading a lot of your posts regarding the Liliths, and I find your insights to be spot-on, so I’ll probably be leaving more comments.

    If you’d like to look at my chart, just let me know. I’d be happy to email you my chart info.

  6. Thanks so much for your input Karen and LB. Just to clarify. @Karen. When you say your Persephone is conjunct your daughters Eris, do you mean Persephone as the asteroid Prosepina or are you just calling Eris Persephone?

    @LB, the same thing, when you say your Persephone is conjunct your mothers North Node. Eris or Proserpina?

    Also LB, yes maybe Ouija boards are pretty scary, but I wouldnt be too scared of the Occult in general. It only means hidden knowledge. Having Eris conjunct Osc Lilith there would mean you are a natural for bringing this hidden taboo stuff out of the dark.

    We tend to naturally fear the Lilith in our charts when it is so powerful and this Patriachal society doesnt make it easy for us to feel confident with flexing our occult talents for fear of us being demonized. Eris and Osc Lilith make a formidable pair. I have written more about these in alliance with the coming New Moon. I will post it 2 moro.

  7. No, my asteroid Persephone is conjunct my daughter’s Eris. I actually separate the asteroids Proserpina and Persephone, as with Proserpina/Ceres/Pluto – Venus cast a spell over Pluto for him to then go gather Prosperpina – whereas there is no mention of that with the Greek version of Demeter/Hades/Persephone.

    Of the research I have looked at, at any rate.

  8. and further, with actual chart study with clients, as I have attracted a lot of strong Persephone asteroid types over the years – Proserpina has been different, with a really strong theme with older age gap/mentor attractions and partners – whereas the Persephone type tends to attract the generic ‘bad boy’.

  9. Karen that’s so interesting about the differences between the two. I’ve only just recently started using Asteroids to colour in my understanding of the Lunations so I’m slowly learning about them as I go.

    From what you have said, Proserpina and Persephone can fine tune what we know about Eris as Ceres can fine tune what we know about the Moon.

    I just looked them up on Astro.com. Woo! Prosepina is sextile my MC by only 16 mins. Oh God, My bad boy weakness Persephone is trine Mars by 1 degs too and sits 2 degs off Jamies Venus…

  10. Hi Marina and Karen – Seems like I missed a great discussion last night. To clarify, Persephone is conjunct my mother’s North Node, not Eris/Proserpina.

    Karen – After reading some of your comments, I decided to check out the aspects between my mom and me, involving Proserpina. More good stuff . . . My mother’s Proserpina is conjunct her Chiron (in our 8th), and conjunct my 8th house South Node, which opposes my North Node/Venus/and numerous other asteroids/Muses in my 2nd. This just seems to add fuel to the fire. It also describes my mother’s wounded relationship with her own mother, who left her with her grandmother at a very young age.

    My Proserpina is less than 2 degrees away from my mother’s Persephone (in the 7th), which also represents the midpoint between my Moon and Black Moon Lilith.

  11. Wow, interesting!! I decided to check sweet cheeks with the ‘she’ – and there’s no asteroid connections going on there either. I guess we can assume that there was not meant to be any life lasting action in the physical sense going on there.

    I am going to enjoy (most times) watching this Eris/Persephone conjunction I share with my daughter play out.

    Marina – I’m not sure I am resonating with Eris being Persephone due to myth and the like. May I ask a bit more about your views on this? I see Eris as a stand alone influence – strife and discord, ambition and envy – and Persephone as innocence, hidden psyche, troubled connections at times and emotional distance – I am not seeing the transference but am totally open minded and keen to hear your thoughts.

  12. @Karen.

    Here are some links that I found really helpful for the Eris/Persephone connection. Zane Stein is the main man for this: tribes.tribe.net/venuspluto/thread/7a562dbe-6c14-4db2-9b29-3f4aab7782d8 Venus-Pluto-Persephone
    And an astrologer friend of mine who is big on all the new discoveries collates all his Eris info here too.
    groups.google.com/group/alt.astrology.moderated/browse_thread/thread/315c80efe5266b95?pli=1 Raymond Andrews

  13. Just as a rersearcher only I am not an astrologer. Pluto does not rule Scorpio- Mars does! Mars is sex and drive/energy! It fits the 10th sector. PLEASE see the work of Carl Payne Tobey an astrological- math genius on the internet.

    The first sector is not ruled by Pluto- it is ruled by first cause or the sun ,hence, Leo!The sun is number one- not number 5 or the 5th sector. Pluto ‘fits’ in the 5th house or sector.The signs that are opposite ‘mirror’and ‘supplement’ one another.So some similars.etc.

    12 signs 12 rulers no more no less unless one is bored and just has to have something ‘new’ to play with thus complicating everything.Simplifying is key.

    Mr.Tobey took astrology back to it’s start as to the base or the Egual House system.Do a chart for someone in Alaska! Try it using OTHER systems which came much later some complicating everything along with it’s short comings.

  14. I do not buy Mars ruling Scorpio, even if you’re trying to keep things simple.

    1. Neither do I Michelle. Mars is raw, impulsive, blood and guts. Look at the stars in the constellation Aries they are all Martian in nature. Constellation Aries If we are doing 12 signs, 12 rulers then Pluto is perfect for Scorpio. Pluto is sexual but its more refined. Scorpio, water sign and it’s fire is liquid like lava in a Volcano.

      Scorpio broods and simmers for AGES, but boy when it erupts. Total demolition! Like a Pluto transit. Mars is knifing someone, Pluto is nuking them.

  15. That was far and away too fast of a response to have studied Carl Payne Tobey’s massive 50 years of research!This is why tradition and not facts are perpetuated because people are not willing to do hard research so it’s the easy route to just stick with the usual out there.Too bad.

    To ‘buy’ should be careful selection and analysis after researching -in this case-someone’s work -not ‘buying,’but cold hard researching for facts!

    1. He is one person with an opinion. Doing 50 years of “research” is no guarantee that he is right, just that his results conform to his opinion. Anyone who knows about quantum physics knows the result comes from the perceiver.
      I would love to read it however, but I have simple not the time right now. I am always interested in how planets are deemed rulers of anything. I just see them as correspondences.

  16. To get started for those that really study for both sides see Google :Naomi Bennett’s ‘Does pluto Mars or Scorpio?’
    Double rulerships have got to go it’s arcane.
    A former student of Payne Tobey all of her material is excellent.She has researched astrology since 1970!

    1. However I do agree Nergal the Mesopotamian God has both Mars and Pluto qualities. I see Mars in Scorpio yes, but I think we are missing something without Pluto. But then I don’t use signs so it really doesn’t affect my readings

  17. i have been kind of interested in sabian symbols of late, and when commenters on your blog started posting on the subject i thought it was cool. i had a look at the my true lilith sabian symbol, 12 taurus: a young couple window shopping. i have realized how obsessed i am with relationships lately; i have just only allowed myself to become conscious of my relationship obsession (mine/other’s). my part of fortune now being “activated” by jupiter in aries in my 7th. my natal 8th house venus quin. juno, conj. lilith, trine neptune, sextile mars, opposed pluto have always seemed part of a quandary, but i am bringing them up to the surface more. i thought it would be interesting for people to look at their true lilith degree in the sabians.

  18. I’m absolutely not keen on the ’12 signs, 12 rulers’thing (it still strikes me as such an odd notion), and personally I think we shouldn’t hurry assigning Eris to a sign as a ruler. But I found this article very interesting!

    I just had a bit of a musing on it, so I thought to post it here.

    Eris causes upheaval, but unlike Uranus it’s not for an ideological it’s-the-best-for-everyone goal, she just doesn’t like the glamoury fake-smile-we’re-all-singing-under-the-rainbow surface. Like Pluto she reveals the deeper layers under the coating at the surface, but maybe in a more swift, direct manner? (She is after all Ares’ sister and associated with strife.)

    “Can the Goddess of Strife and discord really cut it as Queen Of the Underworld?”

    Well, yeah, if you follow that analogy. Wasn’t Persephone in the myth eventually quite content being Hades’ wife? Maybe Eris can be seen as a more direct, yet milder/superficial expression of Plutonic powers?

    She gets to live out her hubby’s energies in a more direct way, she’s more in-your-face.
    The discord and strife could be the receiver’s perception of her energies, just like decay and ruin can be perceived when you’ve got Pluto waltzing over you. Indeed at the wedding party she just threw an apple. Nothing fancy. But by doing so she revealed that the three goddesses that personificated all these great virtues (beauty/love, wisdom, loving marriage)weren’t perfect either, and chose to have a huge row over it, while there were lots of other options to react to it available.

    And still in hindsight they could’ve learned the lesson there that their vanity was undermining the virtues they stood for, so it was something to either accept or work at. (Which is a swifter, more direct working of the intense Plutonic energy, that also deals with seeing the possibly undesired underlayer, and accept it or deal with it/get rid of it)

    Anyway, just some spontaneous thoughts there.

    I just looked it up and my Eris is conjunct my mum’s Sun, and her Ceres is conjunct my Sun.

    1. Hi Marjolijn!
      I totally missed all these posts! I was stuck on a plane for 24 hrs when you posted this.
      I like your way of thinking and I too have moved away from the 12 sign/12 rulers thing. having seen how the traditional rulers work in Huber astrology. But I do think there might just be 12 archetypes and then everything works as correspondences. I think I need to read Man & Symbols by Jung again since I took Astrology.

      When I wrote this I hadn’t really studied Eris enough to make such assumptions. I also agree with you on her version of upheaval being different from Uranus’s.
      Oh yes she can certainly cut it as Queen as the Underworld. Eric Francis has done some great work on Eris I have read since I wrote this. I must add some related posts here too.

  19. ps: That was my first post here ever. Apparently you get a picture assigned to you automatically? (I was already wondering where they came from)

    I hope I get to keep my fanged, bat-winged, chicken-footed meatball with the palm tree hair, lol, he’s awesome!

    1. Yes you will get to keep this monster! Ha ha, its a really sweet one. It makes me want to have one of these too now.

  20. 12 planets or bodies and 12 rulers.People in any subject get tired of ‘orthodoxy’ and want to change things,but new errors always creeps in in a subject like this.
    Carl Payne tobey used the 12 and 12 for 50 years and found it is accurate.
    Speculation on Ceres and all the rest will ruin true astrology as it mathlematics or it is nothing.A false teaching that should be exposed.

    1. I think Astrology is sacred geometry which is maths too and that Numerology is magic. I don’t know anything about Carl payne Tobey, but I googled him and he sounds interesting. I’m not sure what you mean by the 12 and 12.

  21. Is it just me or does this split in astrological method seem to resemble the male/feminine dichotomy of intuition vs logic?

    I myself,a silent observer(well not any more)of this site love to read the posts so generously shared by Jamie/Marina and then the discussions,conversations,sharing of knowledge/resources that follows.

    You guys out there are “speaking my language” and on the “same wavelength”.

    My Sun square Pluto hates coming out of the shadows but I HAVE to say that I feel that what is being created here on this site is vitally important and very dynamic.

    Would guess not alone on this going by the sudden increase on subscriptions noticed!Blessings to you all in these important times.

    1. Thanks Chris, the male/female, intuition/logic, right brain/left brain, science/mysticism dichotomy I think is all over the splits in Astrology. Its even reflected in the arguments Jamie and I have with our Astrology. The weird thing is sometimes I feel I’m the Saturn/keep it real person when really I know my thought processinga and my writing is the most Neptunian. I have Mercury sextile Neptune, he has Mercury opposite Neptune.

      I’m glad we speak your language!, there is more of that happening thanks to the internet. Finding our soul group and all that:)

  22. Hiya Chris!

    I’ve been a “lurker” myself for a short while here, but I acted on a bout of enthousiasm when reading this article and jumped in.

    To me astrology is just the fun playfield where one needs both intuition and logic to prevail.

    I wouldn’t call Davis’ reaction to my post an example of the “logic” side of things. (In case that’s what you were aiming at.) I would call it orthodoxy – and not in a good way, if there is any. (And that’s even without the numerous inconsistensies in his postings here.) Continuously repeating one source is hardly scientific, only interesting.

    Actually, I’m a bit bothered with myself for getting so personal in this, but given the bluntness of the comment (that repeats the arrogant and belittling tone that was set in his previous posts) I will.

    My musings on the Eris-Pluto link are just like I said: musings. This is a place to exchange thoughts, notions and experiences. I didn’t write a book, or proclaimed to be the Eris expert. Maybe after many years of actual experience with her, we’ll find that Eris is the point where we experience our inner adorable tree-hugging hippy. But at this point, “playing” with her (with intuïtion and reason! 🙂 ) is all we’ve got. And hopefully, through that, we’ll come to understand her.

    Though it can spark my frustration at times when I think it makes no sense at all, I do like people who get creative within astrology. I’m currently reading some bits of a woman who is working with something she calls Soul Astrology, and while at this moment I’m not seeing how it’s “working”, it does give me ample food for thought. And who knows, she could turn out to be ahead of her time, practising a branch that will eventually turn out to be very valuable. I can’t say that it’s not, I’m not all-knowing. (I’m not Carl Payne Tobey you know 😉 )

    Considering the 12 planets, 12 rulers thing: I’ve always kept that an open area. While it seems illogical to me, I also don’t KNOW. Could be so, it could also not be. Funny that someone who is so passionate about “exposing false teachings” (and may I repeat that we’re not teaching, but debating, musing, exploring a territory) is so insistent on something that remains a hypothesis at best.

    The funny thing about nature and our universe is that it seems to embody a sort of chaotic order. Mathematics can be applied, but not in the 3-dimensional 2+2=4 way. In quantum physics, 2+2 can equal 1, or 24, or so it seems in a 3d perception.

    I have 2 eyes, 1 liver and 10 toes. In a herd, zebra’s don’t run exacly 12 centimetres apart in a perfect square. Still there’s an order.

    Given the way of the universe, the 12 planets. 12 rulers thing seems a laughable piece of simpelton-think to me. But at least I have the humility to realise I don’t know for sure and that I could be wrong, and the decency not to belittle people who think otherwise.

    In the meantime, it’s interesting that the Heavenly Delight that is Carl Payne Tobey used the 12/12 system to his satisfaction. I’m curious as to which 12 planets he assigned to the signs. Can I find that somewhere?

    1. Love it! Cheers for that response,made me laugh as do a lot of comments made by people on this site,does no good to take yourself or anything too seriously!

      That’s it,isn’t it? We are all co-creators in this “reality” and come with the Uranian energy, we all have the ability to achieve great leaps in awareness and consciousness in our own special way and they ALL WORK if done with love and intention.

      Just thought I’d mention that I live in Adelaide, South Australia.

      I only came to the computer to research astrology January this year (the solar eclipse was on my vertex I have just found out)and was motivated to look at my family’s and my own chart again after many years of being a mum/housewife.

      Feel that something really big is going on right now and the type of information/conversation’s being made are helping to accelerate my learning and understanding of astrology.
      And it feels ALIVE and MAGICAL! Which should scare off all the orthodoxy type readers (otherwise known as Doubting Thomas and his mate Nigel no-fun).

    2. lol, thanks.

      Funny that you mention the feel of something big going on. I feel like I’m going through some super-speed-cosmic-life-school or something, which started off with my Saturn return a couple of years ago and it just won’t stop. Transits and eclipses bumping all over the place. All of this internal high-speed action did make me contemplate the nearing 2012, and it appears I’m not the only one. (I’m not complaining, it all just can seem a bit….impressive.)

      I loved your expression as calling it alive and magical. It is, isn’t it?

  23. I am talking from the standpoint of astrology.Only those-who are not into coy remarks to compensate for a lack of through knowledge and research- who accept that premise based on hardcore study-is this post directed to.
    One who has researched it as did Tobey from statistics,math,personal client studies over 50 years.I urge one who does have a real interest to Google Carl Payne Tobey.His course can be found for free on the net. He was the first who really researched astrology from a careful and detailed mutifacted approach.He removed a lot of space junk that lesser astrolgers had accumlated like rust on a ship.
    So CPT was to astrology what “Elegant Universe”(a must read) Dr.Brian Green is to String Theory.
    Another concept showing there is core order in the universe that could not have happened due to ‘millions ‘accidents’ as one lame blogger thought.Gez.
    Astrology ‘proves’ that order too as does astronomy. Of course, astronomy has the ear of the wrold and rightly so.Astrology goes beyond that to how energies affect the human mind,etc.
    We can know where Mars will be in a thousand years from now or any planet for that matter by using a simple ephemeris.All mathematical calcs.That’s order,and basically predictable order too!.

    1. I did Google Carl Payne Tobey actually. It’s a pity he got buried in the sands of time, as it’s always a good addition when someone shares their experience, maybe even more so when it contradicts the common accepted views, as then they get challenged/tested.

      I don’t know why he was forgotten. You’d say that he’d be remembered if he had been that brilliant. Maybe he’ll be “rediscovered” at another time. But at this point, his students are not doing him much favor.

      You mentioned Naomi Bennett. I found a piece of hers on CPT. “One of Carl’s best discoveries and talents was the ability to discern geometric patterns in astrology, their meaning in modern terms, and to correct the errors in current beliefs. Carl found his greatest success with new students that didn’t have to give up prior teachings”

      Red flag right there. To devaluate other’s valid experience as a “belief” is actually a very tried tactic to undermine them and make the opposer’s “facts/opinion/experience/whatever applies” seem more elevated. Second red flag is that CPT’s views -according to NB- get the best reception by people without any experience with astrology whatsoever. That in itself is the worst kind of argument for his teachings.

      I did come across some mentions of people saying he had written interesting stuff, luckily, as I also came across the incredibly derogatory attitude that seems the trademark of some of his “fans”, you know, the cheery, enthousiastically educationing attitude that you yourself have fumed around here. If you’re really such an admirer of this man, then I’m telling you that you’re not doing his legacy any favors by refusing to discuss his views, only rage on about how super he is and how insanely stupid the people who do not know him or share his *cough* beliefs and expect everyone to immediately convert to Carl Payne Tobeyism.

      You’re so busy proving the absolute, infallible “right” of your pedestalled teacher, that you’re charging straight ahead, not even noticing that we’re mainly agreeing with eachother. (Like for example I’ve said that there indeed is an order and I don’t think there’s any astrologist on this blog disagreeing.)

      I’m always on the lookout to learn new things, or should I say, to access other’s experience. If I can access a copy of “Astrology of Inner Space”, I might buy it, though I’d like to stress, no thanks to your belittling attitude or endless repeats on how ace CPT is.

      And erm….who says that those “millions of accidents” aren’t forming the order? (I’m not a follower of that though as I don’t believe in accidents, but why the arrogant attitude towards someone who tries to form her own image of what the universe is like? It seems like your ready-to-use reaction: derogatory. You also could have given her a calm, friendly explanation of your thoughts on the subject, and then she was still free to accept them or not. Sure, you’d have to do without your superiority-high, but who knows…you might like it. 😛

    2. Bless you Marjolijn,
      I think a good quote here in response would be “there are many roads to Rome…”

      Ok,I’m no astrologer but I can do research/meditation of my own,report back about my experiences and observations.

      Feel like this is important-Chiron/Eris same degree 12Aries in 11th house=square moon 12Gemini 2nd house PLUS Moon also trine Ceres 7th house.

      I am such a softy really and just want to see things bloom,grow and be filled with love so can be so accomadating to other people’s beliefs as long as they respect and nurture the god/dess within us all ,but get criticized for being too airy-fairy and unable to explain the facts!!! That includes my husband by the way,who calls me athena star woman when I speak of “all this” kind of stuff.
      Feels like a bit of witchy/persecution/past life stuff might be going on here…

    3. Athena Star Woman…that sounds pretty good actually! 😉

      Though it can be very uncomfortable, it’s not such a bad thing to be challenged, because it gives you a chance to set your own framework. It means you can drop things that don’t withstand the test, and the ones that do get stronger root. Unfortunately it can leave you feeling very vulnerable (either because you can’t get your logical story to match what you instinctly perceive as a ‘truth’ or because it means dropping a beloved and maybe safe notion), especially in a field where you’re not so much “questioned” but more “ridiculed”, which has of course nothing to do with actually establishing a ‘truth’ and is rarely about the actual content, but a personal attack instead.

      Have a superb day!

  24. Back to topic:

    I just saw that Eris was discovered around the time of Makemake and Haumea. There was a bit of a thing about who discovered Haumea first, Americans at Caltech or Spaniards at the Sierra Nevada Observatory in Spain. According to wiki, the Spanish got to keep the discovery, the Americans got to choose the name, which became Haumea.

    The Spanish however had proposed to name their discovery “Ataecina”. Prosperina, but the International Astronomical Union did not accept.

    Of couse Eris was named Xena first, and one can rightly argue that firsties don’t count (like Herschel). But I found it a nice little piece of info, and thought it fitted under this article. 🙂

  25. Hi Marina, I have just discovered your site and I’m really enjoying exploring it, and I’m so glad to find this article. I remember reading LInda Goodman’s sun signs as a kid and she proposed way back then that there were two more undiscovered planets that would be the natural rulers of two signs that at that time shared a planet (Gemini/Virgo and Taurus/Libra) and that each sign did indeed have it’s own unique ruling body. Now all these years later we have the two new officially recognized planets! It seems obvious to me and makes perfect sense that Ceres is the ruler of Virgo. I’ve been trying to wrap my head around Eris ruling Libra or Taurus and this article is right on the money in my opinion. I would love to see this topic explored in depth in a longer article or perhaps a book *hint* *hint* Thank you for your insights!

  26. I’m really looking forward to your Lillith book, I will check out the Eris book in the mean time. I have Libra rising and while Venus is certainly an ideal to aspire to, Eris is closer to the truth ha ha.

  27. persephone, her characteristics I feel, I relate closely to as a Pisces. I really believe there is some connection between persephone and pisces. plus, if scorpio is likened to hades then, wouldn’t it make even more sense due to the famoud rapport between scorpio and pisces? her innocence, giving into temptation, and a secretive love for the darkness. seems very pisces-esque

  28. In my opinion Virgo is ruled by Ceres – Demeter/Ceres was the goddess of harvest, grain, corn, agriculture. She was associated with the sign of Virgo in ancient cultures.

    Libra is ruled by Pallas – Pallas Athena/Minerva was the goddess of justice, fair play, skills, arts.

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