Mackenzie Phillips shocked the world when she published her book “High On Arrival” which accounts her 10 year sexual relationship with her father, Mamas & Papas singer John Phillips. What role does astrology play in sex and incest? I have come back to this post because I have found that John Phillips has a Yod to minor planet Sedna. The myth has themes of betrayal and abuse by the father to his daughter.
Drugs played a huge part in this. Mackenzie says the first time she had sex with her father (aged 19) she had blacked out through drug use and woke up in the middle of it. She says the first time was rape. However for the next TEN years she says it was consensual.
John Phillips Horoscope
John Phillips has an astounding Yod, we don’t have his time but you can’t get more descriptive of utter betrayal and sleaze then is what I see here. Mars conjunct Jupiter in one corner a huge sex drive and nymph chaser. Jupiter I have found in connection with Lilith(It is sextile) to not be able to take no for and answer. This is an arrogant womanizer. On the other send of the sextile, Neptune,Lilith, Ceres and Venus. What a lethal cocktail of a stellium that is! It’s fueling the Yod and feeding the corrupt and pimping Sedna. Ceres can be opiates and Neptune of course is the drugs.
His Mars is on fixed star Zuben Elschemali. “High ambitions, success through energy, influential position, forceful writer and speaker.” It would be very hard to say no to this guy sexually. His Chiron square Lilith is childhood wounding from taboo sex. He would have a very powerful Svengali influence and he would use Neptune drugs to bewitch. His Sun opposition Saturn (30′) would mean his ego would fight against societies conventional morals and his Sun trine Uranus guarantees unorthodox behavior.
Mackenzie Phillips Horoscope
Well here is my proof of the Sedna myth being so powerful. Unreal, she has Sedna square the AC by only 02′! Mars and Neptune both in the house of the father, sex and drugs. Lilith opposition Mercury the child, maybe shows a precocious sexuality, but also writing about the taboo. She was exiled from her family as a result of coming out about the incest. Mercury on Antares is extreme, she got revenge on her father. Saturn square Nodes Nodes. Her destiny is exposing father Saturn.
Venus conjunct North Node in the 3rd house of writing. Her life path was to write about this “Love” story. Venus opposed Moon, her step mother was against it. Eris is conjunct her MC, she has certainly stirred things up by writing. Eris the whistle blower, blurts out stuff people would rather keep in the closet.
By writing her book maybe she has turned the victim role of Sedna around. Her Mercury on Antares in the heart of Scorpio, passionate and ambitious needs expression. As its an Archangel star she has to be careful she does not fall prey to exploiting the incestuous relationship and use the experience to help heal others. Sedna can mean ill gotten gains. If she is sincere in her story however she can take it to the higher expression and find redemption.
Synastry
The thing that jumped out straight away was John’s Pluto on his daughters AC (07′)! Very symbolic of Pluto lord of the underworld pulling innocent Persephone down into a pit of sex, drugs and rock and roll. Opposing her DC he would have totally possessed her and not let her have her own relationships.
We have some double whammys which are shared karma. Sun trine Pluto and Pluto conjunct Sun. Her Pluto (24′) So he felt she had great power over him. But she would be obsessed by him too, like he was a part of her (conjunction). Sun square Lilith andLilith sextile Sun. Again sexual taboo love with the father. Chiron opposition/quincunx Mercury. Wounded child.
Black Moon Lilith figures strongly in their synastry. Her Lilith squares ALL his masculine/power planets! Namely Sun, Saturn and Pluto. She has been exiled from her family in exposing his domination of her. HIS Lilith sextiles her sexual planets. The Sun & Mars. He bewitched her into bed. Her Neptune sextile his Sun. (44′) The drugs but also she inspired him musically and was his muse.
With Sedna? His Sedna is quincunx her sensitive Moon, which I think would work even worst than a Moon/Pluto, while her Sedna is quincunx his Sun. A lot of quincunxes feature between them and so many karmic Yods. Just to get an idea of it, Controversial artist Tracy Emin has the Moon/Sedna quincunx. She was raped at 13 and aborted twins at 18 because she was afraid of her family. She famously exhibited the bed she had slept in while feeling suicidal due to relationship difficulties. And as for Sun/Sedna we get Nazi propagandist Paul Joseph Goebbels. The deluded ego-maniac killed all his six children before himself and his wife.
The Davison
The Sun is conjunct Neptune. Showing deception, delusion, drugs again. Then the Sun, to make it worst is on the filthy scavenging crow Algorab. Neptune in it’s higher vibration is spirituality and wanting to merge with the source and even the crow can have a certain charm, but not here! It only emphasizes the rot and toxicity of this relationship. In a higher vibration this could show a past life love affair and soulmate connection. But it is also delusion. Mackenzie said herself her father was a genius, who lived in his own fantasy world. He could have taken Neptune higher spiritually, and it is music after all, but John fell prey to the drugs and poison of Neptune’s dark side. He deluded himself into feeling the relationship with his daughter, was “normal”.
The YOD. We have Jupiter sextile Lilith (exaggerated, sleazy, philandering sexuality) both quincunxing unorthodox Uranus at the apex. Lilith in a Yod can be wonderfully magical or a vile weapon of manipulation and mind control. More Moon/Sedna, here it is in sextile. The Moon is also widely conjunct Uranus. Icey cold and looking very psychopathic. So Sedna is feeding that Yod apex, making it callous and selfish in it’s pursuit of it’s goal (sex) and freezing out any sense of remorse on Johns part. Mackenzie would feel the shame that Sedna generates. Lastly I note that the North Node of this chart lies between evil Algol and Capulus which is male, aggressive sexual energy and there is a very Persephone looking connection between Ceres, Eris and Mercury all within a degree.
This was originally published Oct 26th 2009, but has been edited adding Sedna and some fixed stars.
Horoscopes > Celebrity Horoscopes > MacKenzie Phillips
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Good post on a touchy subject.
Though some people want everyone to conform to some standard of perfection out of some book, humans and human sexuality don’t follow such a fine line and that perfection doesn’t exist. Sometimes it’s the guilt and what other people say do far more damange than the incest itself. I know someone who confided in me that she grew up with consentual sex with a parent, and she was/is one of the more decent people I have known in my life.
As another friend of mine say, “It’s an ism … something that just is.” I think that sort of attitude could go a long way in helping people live more adjusted lives … because no life is perfect. Lives are as different from one another as thier birth charts.
And some marvelous teaching on astrology too!
Marina,
Can you explain more in detail what the Persephone aspect is for us laymen?
Did you happen to read the book? She has obviously had a very troubled life – I never did think drugs were her biggest problem though.
Jaime
There is no thing as consensual sex between a parent and a child. Children are dependent on their parents for love, for basic physical needs, for survival. In the powerful dynamic between a parent and a child, children can easily become confused by their allegiance to and love for their parent and manipulated into feeling that their part in a very sick relationship was consensual. John Philips abused his daughter. It is time for everyone to stop perpetuating the myth that this relationship was consensual.
This kind of black and white response is often borne of denial and religious brainwashing on the part of the person spreading this idea.
Regardless of what the law says, genuine consent happens when a child makes a choice without any deception or influence on the part of the parent. That basically means the parent does not lead the child to think things are other than they actually are in order to gain an end, does not force the decision on the child, and does not promise reward or threaten punishment for making the choice.
Granted, children do not usually comprehend the whole of the situation, nor do they really understand their actions’ consequences – which is why a parent is supposed to guide them in the right direction. But the “right direction” isn’t necessarily away from incest. Incest borne of mutual unforced connection and loving/caring intimacy, especially when it is initiated by the child, is usually a very positive experience for both parties. It is only when the parent attempts to force incest, threatens the child to keep it a secret, and breaks their previous history of action with the incestuous activities (basically changing the rules in mid game for the child, throwing off the child’s whole feeling of safety and stability in the world) that incest becomes negative.
Oh, and also when society learns of it, and judges the child and fills her/him with shame and self loathing. In most cases I have seen, it was more the societal response to the child revealing the incest took place that damaged the child with regards to incest, than the actual incest itself!
Usually, negative incest that is damaging to the child is associated with drugs, lies, force, loveless sexual usage and threats. In other words, the child is being forcibly used for sex, and sex without love is very emotionally destructive because it sends the message that the child is either only loveable in exchange for this act, or that their sexual contribution is the only thing that gives them any value at all to their parent(s). On top of the fact that the child may not be emotionally ready to engage in sex.
In the case of Mackenzie, she was a child only in blood relation, as the relationship started becoming sexual at the time when she was 19, which is legally an adult. Therefore, her consent was – yes, you guessed it – consent.
I’m glad you have put another viewpoint here Jacqueline. I just looked at the Astrology, but of course I’m as effected by the taboo associated with this subject matter as much as anyone else so it coloured my interpretation of course.
I am sure she said that sex had taken place much earlier though as a one off when they were both very stoned. It does also make you wonder about reincarnation and if we have been in blood relationships with our current spouse or vice versa. Blurred boundaries. Very Neptune.
Here are actual comments/report from an Interview with Mackenzie in the USA:
In her memoir, Phillips writes that what began as incest under pressure from her father eventually became consensual, but she has since learned through counseling and from other incest survivors that “there is no such thing as consensual incest.”
“I was sort of groomed to believe it was consensual, that I was complicit in some way, that because I didn’t scream and fight and I participated, that made me at fault,” Phillips told Vieira. “And, of course, that is the huge thing that all of us survivors suffer from, is taking a portion of the blame and guilt onto their own backs.”
A child may be curious as to what sex is but they do not think of sex in the same context
Or with the same involvment an adult does. Children are not fair game for an adult sexually.
Your attempt at rationalizing incest and pedophilia in particular disturbs me.
@Yeshe
I only mentioned that it was consensual because Mackenzie said it was herself. And then I wanted to explore the astrology to see why she would’ve said this. But at the same time I totally agree with “children can easily become confused by their allegiance to and love for their parent and manipulated into feeling that their part in a very sick relationship was consensual.”
For it to have gone on for 10 whole years! I mean that’s really something else. I’m just glad she found a way to exorcize this by writing the book. I haven’t read it btw. But maybe I should to get a better understanding. Things are never black or white.
@Jaime D.
The whole astrology seemed to be very much the Persephone myth. But its taking it too the utter extreme. That’s what I meant by refering to it.
This is definitely a difficult subject which you handled well with the astrological interpretation.
I do agree that I think the father crossed the line and that it doesn’t matter if it was consensual after that. The dye had been cast.
I wonder when sex and romance do cross the line from incest to normal exploration. Is it incest if it’s a very sexually active 13 year old girl with a crush on her 15 year old step brother? They key is that they became step siblings at the ages of 11 and 14.
In their composite chart Jupiter is conjunct Moon in the 5th house. Sun is in the 8th in Aquarius. Neptune in the sixth with no particularly strong aspects. Their composite north node is in cancer on the ascendant?
My thoughts were more that it was more likely that the other brother, her biological brother (1 and one half years older) was exploiting her. In their composite chart Neptune is in the 8th house, retrograde. Moon conjunct Uranus and Jupiter are in the last degrees of the 7th house cusp, Pluto is conjunct their composite 7th house ascendant, along with the moon. Neptune also forms a waxing quincunx *8th house* to mercury retrograde in the 4th.
Love to hear your thoughts!
I agree that the comments rationalizing incest and pedophilia are disturbing; just because a person grew up to be a “decent human being” despite having been coerced into sex with one of her parents for years doesn’t “justify” the act or “make it right”. Pedophiles can come up with any number of rationalizations for their predilections, some of which are very convincing! However, just because something “can” be done doesn’t mean it “should” be done!
I will remark, however, that this sort of thing is becoming more common; I read an article not so long ago where a block of apartment buildings in England was experiencing a rash of ‘birth defects”, and they collectively launched a civil suit , alleging that “environmental contamination” was the culprit; it tured out to be INBREEDING that was the problem! Apparently, all these people living so close together were marrying each other, and it was only a matter of time before they were marrying “too close to home”!
Marina, you may want to write something about the PLAGIARISM lawsuit that Angelina Jolie is currently involved in…the announcement of the lawsuit and the recent solar eclipse (very close to her North Node)that both came out at the same time! Plus, Pluto is making numerous significant transits in the charts of both miscreants (Brad Pitt has a stellium in Cap in his Second House and Cap is the ruler of Jolie’s Seventh House)
Whenever you have an argument based on absolutes, you have to question the argument, since there are no absolutes, only shades of gray. There is not going to be a situation in which all of anything fits any one description. Those who insist that incest is always wrong, always exploitive, always nonconsensual, always pedophilia, are displaying this faulty, fear-based thinking.
Black and white thinking comes from an inability to deal with the reality of the fact that there are no comfortable absolutes in life. It is fear based thinking, arising from the fact that shades of gray makes everything uncertain, and requires a lot of thinking because the comfortable mental shelter they have built no longer stands. It is very faulty. With it comes fundamentalist religion, racism, sexism, and several other rather nasty things.
Pedophilia is defined as the specific love of having relations, usually of a sexual nature, with children. Incest is almost never about pedophilia. Pedophiles tend to try to have sex with many children; in most incest cases, the adult only has sex with a spouse and one or sometimes two of their own relatives. It is very unusual for incest to involve one adult and more than two of their own children. Incest also does not always their own children, and not always will the participant be of child age. Pedophiles also act compulsively, and cannot be stopped shy of some sort of restraint; incest actors can stop if they choose to, and incest in fact tends to have a well known span of trend. Even the most long lived cases do not usually exceed ten years, with most instances lasting less than five. The attempt to equate the two is simply a way to poison the waters with emotion based irrational thinking, and does not take reality into account.
Incest “recovery” programs and “therapy” are often based on the belief that incest is always negative, wrong, etc. and in fact the “therapists” themselves often contribute to the problem by effectively brainwashing the “victims” into believing that they never gave consent (or could not have, or were brainwashed into believing they did, etc.) in those cases when it was actually and genuinely given. According to modern research, approximately 18% of incest cases are consensual at least once, and many that are consensual at least once are also consensual an average of five times.
Not all people who experience incest are “victims of incest”. Those who see it as a neutral experience (approximately 15%) and those who see it as a positive experience (approximately 6%) frequently only discover their “victimhood” when they are forcibly brainwashed into believing they were victimized by those who cannot see beyond their black and white thinking. These people cannot accept that not all incest is negative, so to preserve their comfortable, fear based absolutist thinking, they use whatever means necessary to convince the “victim” to accept the title and the role.
Not all incest is positive. The majority of it is negative, and is harmful, but this happens in large part because of society’s reaction to it: the initiator of incest will find a way to make it happen, but typically is not very intelligent or aware of themselves, never mind others, and so they take the easiest route. They know that society views incest as extremely bad, and so the easiest route is to indulge while preventing anyone from finding out. To do this, they use coercion, force, manipulation, lies, threats, fear, guilt, shame… basically what they learned about manipulation of others from society. This is what produces negative incest.
Neutral incest happens when two related parties engage in sex at least once, and consider it neither a positive or negative experience. This usually happens 1 to 6 times before it stops, usually from a simple lack of interest. It almost never has a negative impact until and unless someone tries to convince one or both parties that incest is always negative, wrong, harmful, guilt/shame ridden, damaging, etc.
Positive incest happens when the experience is a loving, consensual one, which is left to the discretion of both parties, without making anyone feel bad about themselves, fearful, shameful, guilt ridden, threatened, etc. and usually results in a much deeper, more intimate and stronger family bond. Most positive incest happens with the knowledge and blessing of the other parent, because it is usually seen as the good thing it is in those cases.
Keep in mind that until recently, age of sexual consent was much lower, often running below 12 years old, and only relatively recently have we developed a society that allows children to remain children until they are 18+. one or two hundred years ago, many girls were married and had babies to care for by the age of 12 to 14, and this was not just condoned, it was expected.
Also remember that the incidence of birth defects from incestuous unions is a paltry 4% until you have it happen two generations in a row. That is just about the same as what happens with non-incestuous unions, which rate at 3%. Only when a child of incest engages in incest does the probability of birth defects become significant.
It’s a complex issue, which is very much made more difficult to study and deal with because of the unthinking emotion based absolutist response.
Incest is not going away. Ever. It’s been here forever and it will always be here. It’s a part of the human genetic map, literally programmed into us, and it will happen regardless of what level of taboo you associate with it, or what you try to do to stop it, punish it or prevent it. Some researchers consider it nature’s “ace in the hole” for maximizing genetic diversity, in fact.
It is my considered opinion that as with most other things, what you repress and/or deny only grows stronger, the same reason the United States is so sex obsessed and sex-repressed at the same time.
I believe we should be working to help those who have been damaged by the negative incest, without creating negative incest where it did not exist through brainwashing people into believing that all incest is bad.
That’s a very interesting point of view. And I thank you for taking the time to add another perspective to the discussion. But I would like to know where you are coming from with it. Are you, or are you close to someone who has experienced incest? I have only seen the negatives I’m afraid as having a close friend who has had this occur in their family. If one believes in reincarnation then at one point you may well have been your lovers mother or sister so this makes the whole phenomena more understandable I suppose . Then when I brought Sedna into it I felt more angry about it. I think I agree with you about incest being different from pedophilia though.
Joanna,
While I agree with you that what we repress or deny will out, and certainly the United States is sex obsessed and sex repressed, the answer is not to excuse sexual abuse but to talk about it honestly and to create a space where the discussion is non-judgmental but also safe for the persons who have been harmed. In other words, perpetrators must be accountable. John Phillips is by all means a perpetrator. The sources of your “research” would be very interesting to review – the research I have seen shows very different experiences than the gloss you put on incest.
It is sad to consider that incest is not going away and that it is programmed into us. What you are really saying is that sexual abuse is programmed into us, that people yearn to feel powerful and feel sexually aroused by their power and enjoy grooming the innocent into taking on the supporting roles in their power plays. How deeply disturbing to believe that such is programmed into us as a species. I disagree.
Fear-based thinking does create many problems and it leads to poor decision-making. To validate the experience of nearly every person to have experienced incest by recognizing the abuse of power that occurred is not fear-based thinking but respect. It is a fair generalization to say that incest is a negative experience. Perhaps you are correct and positive incestuous experiences have occurred. It is all relative. What is positive for one person may be troubling to another.
Yet there are absolutes. A child should have the right to develop sexually in his or her own time. A child should not be groomed into a sexuality that services the perpetrator’s fantasies. Neither should a teenager or adult child. Incest annihilates the vulnerable family member’s sense of bodily integrity, whether admitted or not. Why do you think the sexual patterns of those who experience incest fall into two tracks – promiscuity or prudishness? It is about reasserting control over one’s body and one’s sexual experience. The loss of control for the gratification of the abuser is at the root of the damage, I believe. Healing that is a tough road, and it is made no easier by your rationalizations and analysis. Helping those who have experienced negative incest, as you put it, must begin by validating the pain, not calling it some sort of delusion, which is what you do by claiming that the negative emotions are caused by brainwashing by therapists and society. No. The negative emotions are actually part of the healing process and they spring from a recognition of a loss of bodily integrity.
As to astrology, I do see how Sedna, Mercury, and other planetary placements in synastry charts call out incest. The Phillips case presents a most informative illustration of how the charts show us what has happened. Now, Joanna, surely you must agree that a father having sex with his daughter while she is incapable of consent because of drug use is rape? Does it really matter how old she was? Does it really matter what the age of consent is?
Speaking of the age of consent, I also find it remarkable to read your implicit justification of incestuous relations with adolescents and young teenagers based on laws defining the age of consent. Regarding law, what you will find upon study of the last few thousand years is that law has tended to favor sexual access by adult males and punish female sexual expression. Earlier laws favored the woman but with the transition to male monotheism, and the political transfer of power to males, where women were once the bankers, landowners, priestesses and queens, misogyny became legally sanctioned. Women and children became mere chattels of the male head of household in Biblical times and under Roman law, for example. The age of consent has always been political and has been designed to favor adult men. The age of consent, in other words, has nothing to do with sexual maturity or desire. Yes, young children, even babies have sexual feelings. This does not mean that they are emotionally prepared for sexual experiences with others – with themselves by all means but not with others, and most certainly not with adult or older others.
You may consider my comment absolutist and fear-based thinking. What you should do, however, is examine your own biases. Your comment reveals that you have assumed that people who experience incest as negative are victims of brainwashing therapists and an unfairly judgmental society. Such assumptions are harmful to the healing process you claim you support for those who have experienced negative incest. Perhaps your assumptions and objective analysis are your comfortable mental shelter.
I would wager that the poster “Joanna’ is herself a “sib”, that is to say, someone who has been (or is) a consensual partner in such a relationship. The tone of the post is quite unmistakable; I have seen the same phenomenon in the posts from advocates for “positive” pedophilia.There is just a bit too much “knowledge” of the subject demonstrated; people who have never experienced incest haven’t spent so much time thinking about it, or seek to justify it so fiercely!!
So, if we are going to talk incest, then why not discuss another very well-known case: that of Angelina Jolie and her brother? With Angelina’s Pluto in the Third House, I’d say there is no question that she and James “got jiggy” at some point, and that her little public demo of ‘affection’(actually there was much more than “one” incident, as the mumerous pics of them attest; there is at least one “questionable” pic of her and her FATHER out there, as well!) was not “innocent” in the LEAST.(Apparently she got a LOT of heat from the Hollywood brass over it, hence the “deflecting”,ostentatious PR marriage to Billy Bob Thornton!)
I have often sprung the pics of AJ and bro James snogging away on people and asked at the same time:”Does this look like a brother and sister to YOU?” and never gotten a “yes” answer; instead there is an inevitable rapid turn-away with a revolted look on the face, while shouting out “NO!”
I once also looked at the chart of someone I know, who is a most eccentric person,(to put it mildly) and saw Moon/Mercury/Uranus conjunct in the Third House, and I was able to confirm that yes, he had in fact “had it off’ with his sister; this info came from a third party (he had BRAGGED about it, apparently) but I was not able to muster the courage to ask him about his, um, “relationship” with his MOTHER. (frankly, I didn’t want to know!)