Amy Winehouse was found dead today at 3.54 pm in her London flat. The police have no explanation for it. Late in 2010 I wrote this blog because I had a dream about Amy’s birthtime, I was always fascinated by her and loved her music so this news is very upsetting.
Earlier when I heard the news, I posted the death chart overlaid with my rectified time. But I have since been notified of another birthtime 10.25pm by Frank Clifford*. As this puts the AC conjunct my own and true Lilith on the MC of course I had to study this afresh. Just quickly I notice there is a transiting Yod to natal Jupiter with the Moon & Vertex around time of death.
ORIGINAL POST Sept 12th 2010: Troubled Amy Winehouse’s CD Back to Black was released in late 2006. It was inspired by her on-off romance with toxic lover Blake. I did their Synastry previously. This CD became the soundtrack to what I can only describe as a wonderfully inspiring period for me, but with very dark moments. A catalytic relationship came into my stagnant life and blew it apart. However it was destined to crash and burn as these things do.
- Death transits
So what of Amy? Is she here for keeps? Or like my “Black to Black” affair, destined to burn intensely for a couple of years and then go out with a bang. I was very disappointed to find no birth time for her. But because she resonated with me so much, I felt compelled to rectify her chart myself.
The night before I was set to work on it, I had a dream:
I dream’t I was in a swimming pool. A young girl of Mediterranean appearance was doing wild diving into the deep end of the pool while yelling “I’m Ascendant Aries and Sagittarian Moon, so I can!!!” Amy has a Sagittarian Moon. I immediately thought she must be Aries AC. But it turned out it just didn’t fit.
A Tribute – 24 July 2011
There are quite a few clues as to why Amy became a victim of toxic relationships, drugs and booze. The July Full Moon was all about the scorpion bringing down the mighty. I wrote “Interestingly Mars is exactly conjunct the fixed star Rigel in Orion. This star is in the foot of our hero who boasted he could slay all the animals on earth…..So the stinging theme from the Lesath lunar eclipse continues!” Amy had Mars crossing her AC, therefore opposing her 7th house just last Saturday. A lovers tiff that could’ve triggered a week of drug abuse perhaps?
- Amy’s Huber Chart
With this new time Amy has Rigel as her rising star and her notorious Neptune is on Lesath the stinger in the Scorpion. Both are lethal injections of toxins. Amy was mighty, a huge talent, yet something so pathetic (The drug habit) brought an amazingly gifted person down. By all accounts she was a really sweet, sensitive person, but with Neptune and the Moon in the 7th all too influenced by bad company. This is where the 7th house becomes the “house of open enemies.” which can sometimes be a soul mate. The June Lunar eclipse fell there on this very Neptune and she also had the transiting North Node conjunct her Ophuichus South Node. I’m sure she must’ve been going through some hell with a partner yet again.
She has a lot of the psychopath stars, but in her case I think it’s an attraction to them. Sabik on the DC and Neptune in the 7th confirm this. Sabik “ causes wastefulness, lost energy, perverted morals, and success in evil deeds.” [1]could describe her partners. Her Moon was sextile Saturn and Pluto in conjunction. Who says sextiles are good here? Of course this gives her the infamous Hades Moon. The Saturn/Pluto conjunction are in the 5th house of creativity however and describe her melancholic old style music very well.
- Amy’s Dark Goddess Chart
Her North Node Bellatrix, the female Warrior, well she never really got there did she? She got stuck in her Ophuichus south node on Ras Alhague.
“ making the native especially prone to infectious contamination caused by toxins. People thus influenced are easy going in the use of medical drugs, hallucinatory drugs stimulating foodstuffs, too much good living and overindulgence in tobacco and alcohol.”[2]
Dark Goddess chart shows all the Persephone myth and Lilith linked. A nice middle class girl with supportive loving parents, what went wrong? Eris the hell-raiser sextile the MC prehaps. True Lilith is opposed the lover Mars in a mystic rectangle with the Nodes. Otherwise her Huber chart is like a cracked open egg, the circle of the soul totally exposed to the public, the real Amy hidden below the horizon. While the Moon/Neptune addiction and the Dark Goddesses are all that the public see.
The square to the north node from the Sun/Mercury shows her struggle to be the the strong warrior queen Bellatrix. This star is in Orion the hero, as I said earlier, who was brought down by the poisonous sting. Her Sun conjunction Mercury is on Alkes. The holy grail and yes, like it sounds, it is associated with alcohol and Dionysus.. Sun with Alkes “A person who is a vessel, one who carries something for others. To hold something for others, be it story telling, art, music, insights or visions” [3] A quick look at her Dark Goddess Chart shows a Yod to Chiron in the 12th. Sacrificed for the collective. Medusa is conjunct the Sun Moon midpoint. There’s our Algol! Dark Moon is opposed Saturn, Bad boys..
As for the significance of my dream, back in 2010 maybe it was just a warning for me personally. Funny a year later I have just had my teeth toxins removed and I find Amy and I share an ascendant and by extension that Sabik DC, a weakness for snakes and scorpions… So the dream Aries rising/Sag Moon prediction becomes Mars sextile the AC and Moon is on the fixed star Spiculum, the point of the arrow in constellation Sagittarius. Spiculum is the nature of Mars and the Moon. Driven by passions.
God bless you Amy, you are a cautionary tale for all extremely talented people destroyed by love for a lesser vessel.
* From page 2 of comments:
“Frank Clifford on July 24, 2011 at 9:18 am
Hi Viki
Yes, it’s the same source and was checked a few times by me: Amy Jade Winehouse, 14 September 1983, 22:25 GDT, Enfield, London, England. Source: Winehouse’s mother to a mutual friend of astrologer Margaret Zelinski. RR: A.”
References:
1.Fixed Stars and Constellations in Astrology, Vivian E. Robson, 1923. p.199.
2. Fixed Stars and Their Interpretation, Elsbeth Ebertin, 1928, p.72-73.
3. Star & planet combinations” Bernedette Brady .pg 104.
Dark Moon > Taboo & Toxic Relations > Amy Winehouse.
very sad for Amy’s death – such precious talent that carries strong soul undertones, so clearly felt in her music, her voice, expressing a quality that we all perhaps know, belonging to the darker layers of our own soul’s strivings, a kind of melancholy, a blues vibe, magnetic, slow pulsing yet electric and intoxicating, it is no wonder we miss her and feel the ripples she is sending out as her soul departs…..ours is a great loss, no doubt, but, hers?
….as she was at the crucial point of decision, the nodal push, yes, but, also the critical juncture of her progressed lunar return, the soul’s choice of whether to deal with the inner consciousness, the problematic undercurrents, very lunar/neptunian in her case, and to reform through this at the deeper level, and push outwards again in a new form…guess she couldn’t make it that far, very difficult with Algol at Sun/Moon midpoint with the nodes threatening eclipse resonance….and maybe got sucked into Neptunes maelstrom…so, many yods at work, not least transiting Sun quinx tr Neptune sext natal Moon at moment of death – Sun the action point, Neptune asking and vibing her Moon/psyche….
thanks too for the amazing comments here…
Algol at the Sun/Moon midpoint is conj my DC – I always felt the fatal attraction – much love Amy, go well
I find progressions very illuminating in studying people I know well and my own chart. My Progressed Moon was new in 2007 a week before I moved from NYC to Atlanta and headlong into the Amy tsunami. Actually we played it all the time at the Barnes&Noble where I work, and they were playing it the first time I stopped in at the indie gay bookstore in Midtown.
That photo from 1960 looks like my ex-mother-in-law who died in March 2006. My ex-wife looked like a large Amy Winehouse (she liked her, too, as we are Anglophiles), and had tons of attitude to match. That’s why I call Amy “outerborough”.
black humor, jews are famous for it! lenny bruce etc. least we forget
@Hassan. The reason Amy didn’t get make it past 27 with the chart that she had was because of the amount of difficult fixed stars AND aspects AND a Pluto conjunction transit hitting her dangerous moon. That’s a once in a lifetime transit. If she had got that my age she might’ve made it through. We can deal with these better with age.
Even though we have Ascendants 22 minutes apart, her’s is closer to Rigel in Orion who was brought down by the scorpions sting. my rising star is Hoedus II which is a little easier to deal with plus i am protected by jupiter rising. Instead she gets a testing North Node on Bellatrix the female warrior.
We both have Sabik on the DC, her is closer, only 3 mins. Treacherous partners.
You are like Jamie, he doesn’t use progressions either. Precession is not the same as progressions. We use precession with transits, which is because we use fixed stars. you have to precess fixed stars. i like using the progressed moon, but don’t like to complicate things by using progressions for the rest of the planets unless that are making some crazy aspect patterns with the progressed moon.
Like I found when studying psychopaths, some people have psycho aspects but obviously don’t end up that way, but like you said about Mercury sextile neptune, (being able to outsmart crooks) first you end up attracting psycho’s, and then later you develop the talent for sniffing them out, finally you are able to outsmart them also.
Yes of course I understand the difference between Progressions and precession! I develop my own astrology software actually! Here is an article I wrote about the two zodiacs and I would love to make a software based on the original Indian method with zero Aries being zero Ashwini on 21st March. Here is my article on it:
http://www.mereejan.com/astrology-lessons/the-two-zodiacs.html
I didnt know Amy till a few day sago actually that is why I was asking as she looked stronger than a Gemini Asc. Cancer also in the first house does make one close to home which she seemed to be actually. I find the reflex of the signs dont work with Asc at all and there is a huge diff between Aquarius or Leo rising! First house is what you project to the world and 7th is how your personality is reflected through your partner.
I like your Mercury Jupiter and Mercury Neptune aspects but I am not sure if you realize that you also have a Mercury trine Pluto? I take wider orbs than most astrologers especially when I know we can push it and use that aspect. Mercury trine Pluto (I am also born with it along with a Moon trine Pluto) is the most powerful aspect for understanding the divine truth and also influencing the masses. Unfortunately, some people misuse it e.g. Rupert Murdoch has Mercury in Pisces trined to Pluto and had tremendous influence over the masses. However, he also has a Mercury opp Neptune where he justified his uncreditable acts. Luckily, you and I are both born with a positive aspect between Mercury and Neptune so no excuses for us as we are able to separate truth from fantasy. I would imagine your Mercury in Capricorn with these aspects would be great for corporate advice as well.
Sorry about the progression/precession confusion! I only saw your comment in my email and wondered why you brought up progressions after I had mentioned precession. I didn’t see your response to someone else talking about the progressed moon.
Read you article, the Tropical V Sidereal debate drove me crazy a few years back! Yes, for a while I wondered about going sidereal, since then I was only just getting into using the fixed stars and it made sense to use a star-based system. Then I realized that even siderealists cannot agree on the starting points for the nakshatras and the constellations are not even anyway. The tropical zodiac is a fantastic framework, I use it geographically, I think it gives the degrees of the ecliptic a flavour, like where you are born does, but I love the fixed stars because they are so very good for fine tuning.
Yes I wondered about my trine to Pluto. Pluto is something I feel very strong in my chart, but I assumed that to be because of the tight square to the AC. I like to use very tight orbs, but that’s because I use more Planets (Ceres, Eris, Black Moon etc)
The software idea is great, I think if the best of the tropical and the sidereal were put together, Astrology would really kick arse! I would like to look at the effect of the fixed stars on each of the zodiac signs they fall into. The lunar mansions seems to have an effect of on certain decans of the zodiac too.
Ooh, one other thing. Gemini AC. Lungs? Nerves? Amy had early stages of emphysema. If the AC rules the body, she was a fragile tiny little thing. Petite. Childlike frame. But with a massive voice (Mercury). I had weak lungs (hooping cough as a child) too which is why I decided to give up smoking.
Makes sense with Gemini as part of the 12th as well. Taurus/Gemini in 12th for sure yes. Did you see my article on her
http://www.mereejan.com/famous-horoscopes/amy-winehouse.html
“the constellations are not even anyway”
You said the key thing and many Sidereal astrologers don’t even realize it.
I knew Dr. Tucker who was one of the best when it comes to the fixed stars and how I myself got interested in them.
I am developing a software for genetic astrology where you will be able to put 100 parents and one child, and in less than 30 seconds my software will tell you not only that the child belongs to which parent but also what specific traits has the child inherited from which parent!
We wont need to prove anything for scientists anymore. Developing all the alograthms for it. Mercury Pluto – Mercury in Scorpio or Mercury in 8th or Mercury/Pluto aspect etc.
Keep up the good work.
alograthims I mean.
Forgot to ask you how do I find a subscriber here as I wanted to reply to her but cant find it although it showed up in my email. Her username is Uberqueenofwands. Amazing chart I think she is born on 17th Aug with Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Pluto in Leo in 12th and Mercury in Virgo. Excellent writing ability and capacity for analysis. Would life to respond to her but couldnt find her post.
Hurricane Diane happened when she was born!
Hi Marina,
Had forgotten if I was registered or not. Tried all names didn’t work so registered as stargaze which is also part of my email. How can I delete the other name as WP didnt recognize it as username. Also how can we modify the picture? Thx
Hiya,
If you register an email address with http://en.gravatar.com/ then you can add a picture to go with it.
I go in a delete your other account if I can find it. You will find uberqueenofwands a page back in the comments. But I know her personally so I’ll give her your email also. Yes I love her writing. She is a true Regulus! Her stellium opposes my stellium, we have had a few battles , but we are friends now:))
Amen sistah!
Ah, my sister was Gemini with Sag rising, she died of lung cancer when Pluto and Saturn came to stay… She never smoked in her life. Only when she was ill did I discover a secret grief she had harboured all her life, a man she fell in love with aged 17 who she couldn’t marry since his parents were strict old school Indian Hindus and we are Anglo Indian…
She grieved all her life in secret, grief being processed in the lungs she eventually suffocated. Very sad.
I’m sorry for the loss of your sister, just reading it makes me very sad.
Its interesting once again with the lungs being a focal point for grief, as my doctor who was trying the best he could with what information he didn’t have but also attempted to explain that maybe there was allot of sadness in our family due to the loss of our pet cat (19 years of cat which died AFTER I got pneumonia)but still, the asthma thing he did attempt to assign to the grief I was dealing with for not just myself but everyone else.
There are other things, but I think just addressing issues, because I have no room to bury them has been something liberating for my lungs. It was dealing with the toxic nature of taking on other people’s problems, not just my own… but sometimes we just don’t learn until we are at “death’s door” literally.
I too never smoked a day in my life..but realized a number of years ago that my own life was born out of the grieving process of my father… when his father died, I was conceived.
Very interesting AET.
Makes me realise grief is just not allowed in the modern designer techno style over susbstance world.
But its like a miasm which creeps from one generation or person to another and it leaves an imprint. There has to be what in modern physics is called an energy signature.
Talking about the loss of your cat, I was out last week with my husband and we both thought we saw my old cat who died about 5 years ago. It made us both kind of quiet. I never underestimated the relationship I had with that animal.
It seems a lot of people are conceived under the weight of grief and I don’t know of any specific studies in any world which address this really. I do know that it will affect the child in utero. Perhaps this is the start of asthma?
Do we lok to Neptune for the keys of grief?
I am reminded of the story of the Little Mermaid who suffered intense pain just so she could walk in the world of the human she loved… A totally Neptunian story fro what I think is a wholly Neptunian affair.
Now what about Amy’s mum, the pharmacist? When I see pictures of her I find it hard to believe she is Amy’s mother. Maybe she had repressed stuff around her Jewish roots, ancestral grief (almost certainly) and so on?
My own Mum is very Neptunian – having Mercury, saturn and Venus in Pisces opp Neptune in Virgo. She came to the UK as a teenager, had to go and work in a factory – straight form leaving a boarding school in Lucknow – huge culture shock! And was denied the career of her choice etc etc due to economics and family. it wasn’t until my sister died she took the reins and started singing in public! Lovely voice even at her age! I thought she would cave when my sister died (she was only 42, left 2 girls) but she turned her grief into song. Remarkable.
The more I think of it, I am touched by the collective grief of the people who lived through two world wars in such hardship.
Chanel 4 (or was it BBC2??) did an amazing documentary on the people in the UK who were still indentured workers just before the war – the kids of poor people they were sold at work fairs as their parents couldn’t keep them – many aged 13, 14, 15 and were paid nothing for hard labour, abused etc etc
It seems there was so much everyday suffering and grief was al there in the fabric of life.
Now we get brash comments like – Get over it – and are expected to move on, smile and strive to have a perfect life.
There was a report in the US today about the huge spike in suicides in middle aged women /today.msnbc.msn.com/id/43714272/ns/today-today_health/
I think the issue of grief needs a really close look.
I htink I mentioned it earlier but watching Amy’s last gig, drunk and shuffling, there was just incredible hurt in her eyes, ireperable (sp?) damage and perhpaps more than one generation of broken hearts.
I had noticed that some people who probably wouldn’t even be in this world today have arrived by the result of some kind of grief or traumatic experience.
The strange world of my mother and father, and their brief time together and what had happened under the time they were together, (the death of both of their fathers) not only to mention that my father had been a year younger than my mother, and he had only one lung at the time, the other taken from him at a very young age due to TB.
I was lucky to have been born without breathing problems given that mess.. I developed this gradually but have also come to release it gradually, after all, we can’t fix all the problems in simply one fair swoop, sometimes things take time to decompress.. as with me, no difficulties and much less “health issues”, and my awareness of the possibility of them and how to avoid them has been part of my “Virgo Moon” control issues.. about attempting to control my environment and such.. but also my concern for the wider world, which I have always had.
Its not enough to say I deserve to breathe, but its also important to say, EVERYONE deserves life and deserves to live and breathe free air, untainted, good water, good food and the right to pursue a true happiness. We often suffer and grieve because of something we did or didn’t do, but we must strive to give a better standard and give the time and life to address issues, even if others are willing to take on some of that pain upon themselves.. people need to pursue that bad feeling and sadness to understand the wholeness of life. We have a generation that has been insulated in many ways, while other parts of the world have taken on the shadow and the pain.
I think some of my personal grief that I really have broken through recently was about the right that I had to even live, since my mother could have aborted me, being single and encouraged to do so. And this was also part of the grief that I discovered AFTER the entire “healing”.. and trying to activate my “talent”. Still discovering it, and for me as well as obviously many other people, its never too late to find where your joy is.
As in the case for your mother– to give that loss a place, and to celebrate it with beauty.. that is probably the best tribute to your sister she could give. The pain never goes away, but to give it respect, is what is necessary.
She didn’t smoke even. Very sad. My dad did, quite heavily too and died of lung cancer as did his father. Tough Sicilian macho men who never showed emotion. I didn’t know lungs were grief… My grandfather was a very violent and scary man, my father inherited the temper, but not the violence, he would bottle things up for ages and then storm out of the house.
This prompted me to look at dads transits on his death chart. Pluto sextile Moon (applying 15′). When he was diagnosed it looks like Saturn was crossing his AC and squaring that Moon. It happened very quickly. He had Mars on Algol.
Pluto can be ruthless even in sextile.
It was definitely the Saturn Moon aspect. Makes people feel very weak and also lack of iron. Women become very susceptible to stress related illnesses right after this depleting transit and I have found many of them who developed breast cancer right after it. Gardening and anything to do with earth seems to offset its negative effects.
Pluto sextiling his Mercury was the realization of truth which often happens when we are faced with such situations.
I am even more convinced now Marina that your Mercury trine Pluto aspect is valid. To have this wisdom aspect, something precious always has to be denied in life.
Wish you would all write something positive about your fathers also! After all you must have inherited some of his qualities! Which parent had Mercury/Pluto or Mercury in Scorpio or Mercury in 8th? Someone must have been very deeply spiritual in your family and maybe even some high up priest or pope in your heritage.
oh Marina, Astrolabe presents your aquarius moon on the N axis; M/M/V/S 9th/hs; cap.merc 10. great perch for observation and passing out gifts of reason! The father/sorrow is the 4th/hs/virgo/pluto opp/10/hs/saturn/pisces. You were pretty afraid of your dad and felt at times stifled, (air) devoured also felt he held your life in his hands or a least back, a strong will on your part, and some issolation, physical removal set you free. You also felt not good daughter to him. he had sadness heaviness as well. Is there some cause he liked that you may champion or place you may visit bring flowers…never too late to be a good daughter…
beehive hair-do, black tresses, emblematic spider, ‘hard to get to know’ not scorpio rising? The emotional drawing in of the masses in recriprocal love, (11/hs/pluto/libra sextile 1st/hs/sag/neptune/conq) her scorpio fascination, she moves a finger, invites us to see her core. Now pluto/capricorn (2nd/hs for amy) is trans trine her natal 12/hs/00saturn/scorpio, inhertance factor.
the 00 capricorn placement is incapacitating!, retiring and frightened, no seeking the stars, but hiding under the covers!
neptune in first; uncertin AC…. we can’t grasp her but she’s everywhere, had waking image, just regaining conciousness this morning and saw her walking towards me, the only communication was of emmense power, she had soaked it up and wanted to give it out.
last night a T-storm stationed itself over our house, most intense, gigantic bolts/percussion, shook the heart, this morning I looked for damage, a lot a rain we needed but no damage.. one son stayed blogging in his fancy chair… neptune/pluto
In reply to Stargaze. We ran out of room!
Mum and Dad were born a few days a part the same year and time. They both had Sun square Pluto and Pluto in the 1st. No 8th house Mercury, Scorpio or in aspect to Pluto.. Mum had Moon on Antares though 00′!! (In the heart of the Scorpion) Both North Node in Scorpio but nothing else.
With my Dad it was transit Pluto sextile his Moon not Mercury. This Pluto/Mercury thing may come from my grandmother (Mum’s mum). Her Mercury is in the 8th. Her Mercury sextile Pluto (6 degrees). IC is Scorpio.
Let’s go to my daughter. South Node Scorpio. Mercury just touching the cusp of the 8th house if you use Koch.
My dad was a loveable rogue and a bit of a ladies man… He was wise enough to know his temper and get out the house before it could do any harm. I loved him very much so I didn’t mean to be negative about him at all! He ran away from home at 14 to get away from grandfather and work in the french mines. I inherited his inventive mind, his pioneering spirit and refusal to conform to the stereotypical Sicilian parent.
Nice to think I was Papal stock, lol, more likely a Maltese knight though. My Maltese grandmother came from a pretty posh family, she married a Baron, but alas I can’t claim to be a Baroness. My real grandfather was some “Persian Prince” (Yeah right Nan!) she had a fling with. He looked like Omar sharif and produced my mum!
Interesting I am actually Persian (my mother was from Shiraz same place as the poet Hafiz).
Would like your comment on Your Mission which has my music and words.
http://www.astrotrends.net/assets/media/mission_HJ.swf
It is also on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RLiwJeynTk
You indicated “No 8th house Mercury” for your parents. How do you know this? I am curious as most Italian parents dont have their birth time. Your Mercury Pluto coming from your grandmother makes sense though. For my genetic astrology program, this is really important and I might add a second layer to it where you can see the fixed stars as well.
By the way, did you know that many great poets were born with Mercury in Capricorn? Milton (Paradise Lost, he was a Sag with Mer in Cap) and many others. We would not consider Mercury in Cap to be very creative normally but it is their ability to say a lot in few words which is essential in poetry of course.
Would love to see the charts of your parents, grandparents and yours which you can maybe email to me. I can send you a pdf form for genetic astrology I have made so we can analyze which aspects and variation of theme you have inherited from which side.
“Your Mission” is a beautiful way of putting it.. Very poetic, you can see your Mercury sextile Neptune! I have Paradise Lost, well I would wouldn’t I?
Yes do send me the pdf form, I am very interested. I’ll email you. You made me think of my family and dear dad today. They are an interesting lot…
The times for my Mum and Dad will not be exact to he minute but I think cannot be more than an hour out. I asked my Dads father and she specified 10am, she said would never forget, he was the first (of 6) and he was her favourite. (She told me!). That puts Mercury at the end of his 10th. Same with Mum (First born too), she was really into astrology and had her chart done a few times so she would’ve certainly tried to get the right time. Also puts her Mercury in the 10th.
those who dabble in the dark forces have got a vested interest in ‘AMY’..her death wasnt a chance happening,just like michael jackson’s it was a contrived event to coincide with the massacre in norway..google ‘AMY’ and ‘saturn’
likewise research ‘rik clay’s’ death and his brilliant work exposing the occult agenda…Rik died approaching twenty seven..he was a threat and was thus taken out before his ‘time’
AFter reading a couple of articles written by her ex managers, something occurs.
The Saturn Pluto conj is a prison. And a prison of the father. Her father was very pro her jazz singing etc – but she was the custodian of a remarkable voice – a voice like that is full of prana, kundalini and so on. It needs a mentor, a guide and a master. No disrespect but I knew her first manager very well, and he was/is a gorgeous person and very caring and sensitive but not up to a tour de force ;like that.
The voice is something which comes through the singer – Anyone here familiar with the astounding voice of the late Jeff Buckley – and his father Tim Buckley? tim died young of a heroin overdose and Jeff picked up the baton with the voice which improved. But one day he couldn’t handle the pressure and mysteriously walked into the Mississippi and drowned.
Many opera singers establish remarkable voices very young. They are tutored at academies by master teachers and so on. Most of them have long careers. Whether you like opera or not, the power of a beautiful voice is extraordinary. But it has to be trained, nurtured and mastered. It needs a guru.
Someone with PLuto Saturn conj natally needs to rebel and get out of the prison. if your father is right behind you at every twist and turn what do you rebel against as a kid? Yourself. Self sabotage. YOu wreck yourself. Its the only way to cut the umbilical.
The music business background which fostered Amy as a product was indeed highly toxic. There was someone a lot higher up the food chain than her manager who I knew and – well its a horror story.
A little girl with a Neptune home, a Saturn PLuto prison, a lot of money and an addict husband…
Threads of poison, toxicity, walls and gaolers. All too much for a small body to take.
it’s interesting what you’re saying about the saturn/pluto prison. I’ve got saturn transitting my pluto at the moment (square venus in 2nd house) and I completely relate to that feeling. There’s no where to go but inward, and even there it seems as though there’s no release.
Hang in there. That’s a tough one. I had that when I was going through a divorce. The prison, yes but also coming into your own power and becoming your own rock.
Uberqueenofwands
Uber only a Plutonian could’ve written that! Great stuff and very Persephone.
I’m reading the Pluto/Saturn section of Cosmos and Psyche right now which is really interesting as Amy is such a product of Thatcher Britain isn’t she? Born in ’83. She definitely carries the vibe of that time when you think of the music that came from then, although her music was not electionic at all. The gothic, new wave, nihilistic vibe carries through.
My daughter went through it – very painful to watch and not interfere. But she had to strike out on her own… fairy tale stuff… enchanted into the dark forest, caught up with the goblins… she’s good now though!
She was born in 1980 so defo a Thatcher baby.
Some of those kids have Mars Pluto conj in Scorpio… wonder how many of them got involved in gangs and street stabbings? The urge for primal violence backfires and makes them prisoners of the state they want to rebel against…
Jung’s idea of enantiodromia.
I also think the Uranus/Pluto in Libra generation are very connected into Thatcher and her ethos. Wasn’t she a Libra rising?
BAck to sweet Amy – I think some heavy karma with Dad.
Interesting that Uranus in Libra (freedom in love) was the time when common law relationship started!
Apparently her father loved her as lot and her talents were of course inherited from him. She seemed to have a very controlling mother actually. Cap on her 4th (Sag-Cap) and Cancer on her 10th (Gem-Can) indicates a role reversal where the mother was more of the domineering influence. Strange that the mother spoke to her the day before and felt everything was fine!
I had this in spades years ago – Saturn and PLuto both in T square to my entire stellium. Total breakdown, debilitations, loss of home, everything.
Think of the mystery of the caterpillar which goes into the chrysallis. Its a mystery because we know it goes in but no one knows what happens in the chrysallis. Its one of nature’s real unrevealed mysteries. The entire body liquifies then reforms. At the right time it emerges.
I know that feeling, no where to go but inwards… and even then, no release. i lost faith in everything, and began to think Freud had it right, that there were very simple drives to everything and it was all based in survival.
Each day was just an existential exercise… but somehow, a light emerged.
a wonderful human being, the late Father Bede Griffith, a Christian/Hindu mystic pointed out that in a Hindu temple you went into the darkest inner sanctum and that is where the light shines. So you’re in the temple. The light will shine.
yeah, ubq, the generation, libia/pluto/conq is entering prime..and it’s all about dad! fatherless households grow uncertian males blaming women….(norway shooter) and women choosing sperm banks over the real thing. Some males reject liberalism in all forms, a nephew thinks all pop music is degenerate, the last great dance is the minuite, sufferage, women voting destroyed the US, and for himself he want’s a AI child!
self-sacrificing, self-destroying, destroy what you hold dear about them. exactly. Amy’s out-of-sign conq has her slipping chains but not the shadow.
A fear of being like dad, absent, dead or in dangerious occupation, gives an air of superiority …alive to contradict…
Anders Behring Breivik, norway shooter, doesn’t have libra/pluto/saturn/conq, predates it, what he has is massive aggreement to murder, 4th/hs/aquarius/mars/sun..mercury, cerc..square/1st/hs/uranius/scorpio…the lone crusader at war with? 11/hs/virgo/moon/conq as him blaming his mothers & sisters immorality, female health, on society and trine/venus/capricorn was a use of friends, social influence, to futher secret goals… uncomfortable unless in his own mind, where he probably relives the shooting.
http://www.elsaelsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Anders-Behring-Breivik.gif
inmates in amercan prison make, serve food, wish anders was here tasting American fare!
I was just reading the comments and would like to comment about lungs, Gemini, Cancer and Mars. My AC being O.35 of cancer Mars being at 26.35 of Gemini. Yes I definitely swear too much as well as use swearing as a form of affection. I also notice that when I’m worried stressed or have any negative emotion I tend to feel a ball just behind my heart pressing in to my lungs. I’m a bit sketchy on my birth time. PS if your curious my time is 3am hyderbad india 4/aug/79.
“Yes I definitely swear too much as well as use swearing as a form of affection. I also notice that when I’m worried stressed or have any negative emotion I tend to feel a ball just behind my heart pressing in to my lungs.”
This is exactly what I have been experiencing the last week or two as Mercury stationed retrograde on my Mars. Chest feels very heavy, I gave up smoking just over 6 weeks ago. Feel like dark evil ball of energy just below sternum. Now more frequently feeling the urge to vomit it up, actually dry reaching in the shower a few times the last 2 days.
Yes we have been venting it out on each other lately. It’s been very hard hasn’t it? This is when long distance relationships suffer the most. When you cannot just hug each other. We depend so much on good communications, our Mercury’s are squared, but my mercury is on your AC thank god.
But we are both still detoxing. Did a heavy metal test this morning that shows high levels of Mercury still, but atleast I’m not at the “Very high” levels. Have made that doctors appointment for a professional test.
I keep sighing, and heres a feeling around the place you have described, the heart chakra, I just feel the ned to breath very deeply all the time. But it’s not a ball, more like a heavy heart feeling.
Between both of you, I feel that there is a genuine change for the better that has taken place.. a clearer feeling in spite of this Retrograde– both of you having so much effected by Mercury (not unlike myself!) So there is a need to get it out and clean and address the stagnant energies but on the whole my feeling is that the both of you are friends down to the soul and this is sometimes even more precious than that “romantic” love, especially when it happens between two people who have similar interests and are invested in a partnership.
Obviously for your partnership the two of you are in a serious “detox”, this is probably very important that there is a gentleness with each other while this is going on because it feels like a part of the learning process.
I’m realizing I too am in the middle of a learning process, coming closer to my partner but closer to my karma which seems to be at odds with each other. I don’t see this in your relationship, I see you are both karmicly going in the same direction.. but I think I can only see this because I have discovered the nature of my own reality.
The heavy heart is shared, you both feel it, and I hope that you get your hugs soon.
yes, the heavy feeling is there for sure and I completely concur with you AET, my own karmic path has become clearer and this goes back through family lines where a massive clear-up is going on-this has actually brought me closer to those I have a soul connection with – me and my ex are on the same wavelength again and the comms are good, supportive – this Mercury time has impacted big on comms and connections that are real, stand the test of time are being exposed – the ethos is ‘love it, use it or lose it’ – but, I also equate this with the extra energisng of Cancer – Mars is right on my moon at this time and with Pluto opp the heaviness feels deep rather like an undertow but it needs that shake up – Mars is burning bridges as well as burning off the stuble of the old crop – strange metaphor at this time? Not really, the disconnect is between Natural Law and Human Law and yet the same old energies are at work – this will affect us all, but, the kids out looting are reflecting back to us the harvest gone wrong…..
Jamie and Marina – if you have the ability to withstand seperation and communicate your unrest and still show the powerful connection is there, in heart and soul, then you can survive anything…I have no doubts that we are all being challenged to seek deeper connections, that stand the tests
Mars is approaching the UK MC now, so watch the debates and tensions escalate – here in the UK we are all feeling this too, the heavy feeling, also a feeling of being wired mixed with a gut feeling of discomfort – Mercury is playing with my natal Pluto too, conjunct, square AC and lo! my phone has been cut off and the landline broadband with it – thankfully, I also have mobile broadband, but, connections change with the weather, including the space weather, so, forgive me if my moderating has become sporadic…but, that disconnect is also helping make those deeper connections
bookmagic – remember to breath deeply, Mars is blood and carries oxygen, prana, life force around the body – Mars is a great gift giver of vitality and can swearing is the bloody truth!
meant ‘damn swearing’ – s’truth!
Thanks for that advice Rob. I kinda skipped read your comments about Mars and burning bridges. I generally am not a vicious person. However I found myself being quite intolerant of overly watery people. And i do believe that when someone tells you something personal you shouldn’t throw it back at them in an arugement. However, all those rules have gone out the window. I definately don’t like who i’ve become at this point in time. And am finding it hard to let go. I also blame all this on the MARS Pluto opposition close to my Decendant. Also i’m facing transiting saturn coming to conjunction on native pluto. So i belive i’m feeling more restrictive my atitudes with others. Anyone else going thru this at the moment. I was also looking at my solar chart, and noticed these aspect are here for the year. So i’m going to use them to my benefit. I studyind a course of netwroking at tafe. This finishes in December. So I will be looking for work so by then i should theoretically be use to this solar chart energy. And thus be able to use it in a more positive way
bookmagic – guess that means your pluto is near opp my sun at 17 aries – even making a comment can sometimes be a risky business, but, that aries sun can also appear to be too thoughtless towards others, self important and self righteous (as I’m no doubt about to demonstrate), and with a scorp asc squared by pluto can up the anti in very devious ways, snide and sweary behind peoples backs – ffs, how many times has my 7th house mars sextile sun found me out! – all the more reason (for me) to respect your upcoming saturn pluto conjunction and listen to what you are mirroring back – respect
saturn too can be the transformer, in very tangible and pragmatic ways, and following through on the transpersonal underground energies is difficult without it, otherwise the changes can be overwhelming, we can become emotional soup and hate others who reflect this back to us, esp with that mars pluto opp – saturn can focus the pluto fires of transformation and, I hold, should ideally be used as such, rather than quelling them (which he won’t anyway when pluto is involved)
for me saturn’s bringing out real big ingrained problems of family and home, who is really important and how we are or are not getting along around home issues into focus, as my sun is 4th house – with him you can tell when, if it hasn’t already, the shit is certainly going to hit the fan – having said that…..
I think saturn is seriously under-estimated as an agent of significant change, gets dissed to often for being restrictive and depressing – yours sounds like a prime opportunity to cut the crap, burn off the aggregates of habitual ego, swearing plenty and speaking truth as an assist, no pussyfooting, and getting to the bottom of things once and for all – saturn, I believe can also help us find our own true principles and do all this in a conscientious way – so, thanks for getting back, and g’luck with your journey
The funny thing Rob is that every yaps on about their Saturn return. And how its supposed to be this huge life changing period. For me its was nada, zip, zilch. I should have looked ahead seen what was to come. Namely that just cause i got off easy on the return was no reason to rest on my laurels. I will be facing Saturn conjoining Uranus in approx 2-3 years and then Neptune in 2-3 years. So yes the studies help. But keeping active and brooding on things for 2-3 weeks i found helps most of all. It stops me being idiotic. Also lose the phone when angry so you can’t txt anyone.
Also to answer your oh so subtle (tongue in cheek) Yes my Pluto is at 16.49 of libra Uranus at 16.57 Scorpio and Neptune at 17.57 of Sagittarius
Good I’m not crazy. A friend of mine went for a run and reckons that every 500 mts of the run it was spitting up phlegm and started feeling better after it was all done. I can’t see myself doing that.
Definitely agree with the dark evil ball of energy imagery.
When I first gave up smoking I was coughing up phlegm for months. It drove me insane. It seemed never ending. I also go running, I think exercise probably speeds it up. I still had the odd cigarette everytime I had a social drink, which was stupid because it was undoing all the good work. I think it takes about 6 months before you can really feel like a non-smoker and think the taste of tobacco tastes foul. Think I’m nearly there.
I totally get the negative emotion and fear. It’s like the heart is frozen and solidifies. Deep breathing seems to break it up abit. Petrify is a good word for it, petra=stone. Very Saturn. Neptune dissolves. Are you detoxifying in any way? Do you smoke?
Yes I am. As you probably noticed that neptune and the moon are in saggie and one of them is very close to the dsc. I do smoke ciggys. Gave up the green stuff in 2007 and now I am giving up the harder stuff. Slow and surely. Back in Nov 09 I was given the wrong amount of regular maintenance dose.(For people in the know, will understand what I’m on about.) I be on this give the hard stuff since 07. I just seemed like the right time. I have not gone back to my bad habits and yo-yoed between giving up and not wanting to give up. If you want to know more pls email me.
Bookmagic – I have been reading your posts with deep fascination.
I’m sure someone will shoot me down in flames for this BUT – PLuto in Libra is a very difficult pivot for a huge initiation.
As a generational thing it is contradictory. It is the deep need for relationship and relating but the need to control it too and destroy it.
Libra can be shallow and superficial. But with PLuto there – Where’s the passion of PLuto in balance? For the style over content aspect of Libra and the strategist of Libra, PLuto is going to throw up huge challenge when it is activated on the cardinal cross – i.e now.
This is a massive initiation for all of us – and will be particularly difficult for those with Uranus and Pluto in Libra because their background is to expect to experience life with control, strategy and equanimity. And not get the hands dirty. But the paradox is presented by the natures of Uranus and PLuto. expect the unexpected. And then expect the unexpected again.
re your pending Saturn/Neptune transit,
I had a huge Neptune /Saturn (similar but different of course) transit a few years back. I was drowning, depressed, miserable and conned big time. I did however, produce a small picture diary, little paintings of how I felt and I’m glad I did because they are excellent reminders and small works of art. Your saturn neptune transit – you could/should make concrete – write in stone – what Neptune presents in your chart.
Saturn may contain the flow, create a dam, make the water powerful, harness the dream, build the belief, construct the temple. Carve the soul.
You have three outer planets triggering three crosses of initiation – PLuto in CArdinal Cross, Uranus in Fixed, Neptune in Mutable. So transits of Saturn to these planets perhaps a lot more potent than your saturn return?
I must admit uberqueenofwands, i am vain enough to hope someone is fascinated with my as you so generously put it post (i call it rambling). But i do have a little humility to feel guilty (i’m sure hijackers feel the same way).
“BUT – PLuto in Libra is a very difficult pivot for a huge initiation.
As a generational thing it is contradictory. It is the deep need for relationship and relating ”
For me this means seeing both sides to the divided, and vacillating between the two. Today i might be pro and march with you, tomorrow i might be against and march against you and also expect you to understand the why’s how’s etc. of my mind and get upset when you don’t and also understand and forgive you for not understanding.
Now that’s contradictiory.
For me and I’m lucky my Neptune is in Sagittarius it gives me a love/thirst for knowledge. I pursue this thru reading. And feel quite panicked when I’ve got to get rid off any of my babies (sorry I mean books) (could also be because of the Moon conjunct Neptune to.
As for those crosses you were talking about i’m well aware of it. They do not exist I tell you. They don’t. Just going to take it one day at a time and do what i do best tune out. This is a very automatic response. Much to the chagrin of my partner. Who can’t get me to focus on anything for more then 2 minutes. That includes watching t.v.
I just like to correct myself i’ve been on the hard stuff since ’03 not 07. What i meant to say was i’ve been weaned since 2007.
leo rules the heart…mars into cancer had mothers ankles swell, water retention, 8/20-27 square saturn/libra in virgo should have everyone feeling crummy.
stone-on-the-heart, thank-you marina for the definition, is lonliness like a constriction or hole, knew a lot of saturn return leo’s had heart surgery, (including x-president clinton), and other problems of the heart.
The terrible secret about necotine is how great it is, opening pathways in the brain,aiding digestion, reducing appetite, oh why dear lady nicotine must you kill the host?
so why quit? I had 3 months of walking pnemonia all to bury it and looked like a drowned rat. now a wiff of second hand smoke blisters me, (angry that is). Smoking something to look forward to…when I’m 90.
I think there’s a gift w/ this full moon. classic picture here. Love august, leo, aquarius moon…so world can we talk it over? Why cling..
Wow her chart was an eye opener I have aries rising sag moon and alot of mars .I got a divorce I could understand that sadness because I sure was experiencing some bad thoughts lately.I’am going to have to look at my chart a little more to be fully aware of why I have been feeling this way.